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Guest: Daniel Debrocke

Release Date: 3/10/2024

Welcome to Trulyfit the online fitness marketplace connecting pros and clients through unique fitness business software.

Steve Washuta: Welcome to Trulyfit. Daniel, thank you so much for joining the Trulyfit podcast again, when you give my listeners an audience who didn’t hear you the first time, a little background on who you are, and what your day to day looks like in the health and fitness industry.  

Daniel DeBrocke   So first off, thanks for having me back on, it’s good to connect again, it’s been a minute, so yeah, it’s great to be here. And as for like, who I am, I mean, I really enjoy powerlifting and strength sports.  

Daniel DeBrocke   I think the thing that really compels me towards, you know, lifting in general, and dieting and all that stuff is more so just the, the process of really sinking your teeth into something and then sort of seeing the fruits of it, right, where it’s like, Hey, I’m getting stronger, I’m getting bigger, I’m getting leaner, that stuff.  

Daniel DeBrocke   And so I really enjoy that process of being able to actually succeed. Shocker, right. And, and then along the way, you know, I’ve I really enjoy just learning and being able to connect with other people who are, you know, far smarter than I am.  

Daniel DeBrocke   And I’ve been a coach for, gosh, maybe 1212 years now. And I’ve worked with some pretty cool organizations, I’ve written for some pretty cool publications, been on, you know, a handful of podcasts and done some speaking engagements, both locally and internationally.  

Daniel DeBrocke   And, yeah, right now, my I, so I left Kabuki strength, I was director of education for over there for about three years, whatever I was with them. And since I left them in March, last year, we were just talking about the software.  

Daniel DeBrocke   I started my own coaching company, and that’s been going quite well, especially recently, it’s kind of been blowing up which is created a lot of new problems. But these are good problems. You know, so I can’t complain really? Yeah.  

Steve Washuta: Well, I love your socials, you have a wealth of knowledge, there’s a million things we can talk about, you know, from the the science of lifting to form to strength training, programming.   I mean, this is these are all things that that you have a lot to say in and I apologize that I’m going to be using you for, I guess you would say a more philosophical conversation around health and fitness today, because selfishly, that’s, that’s what I enjoy talking about.  

Steve Washuta:  I think that’s important for a lot of my listeners. So you, you, you also talk about this, too. So your posts aren’t all specifically, hey, this is the best way to do a single arm lat pulldown, you also say, Hey, this is what’s going on in the fitness industry that I do not like or that I do like.    And I think that’s important as coaches to talk about that because we want our, our industry to be healthy. And right now, I think the industry is very unhealthy.  

Steve Washuta: And I’m gonna I’m gonna lay out why I think that you could tell me about if you disagree or agree, or maybe just my analysis in general, and then give yours but we had a push, or we still do. But we had an initial push from people who were so pigeon holed and thinking they had the answer to do something like.  

Steve Washuta: Hey, you can only eat fruit, hey, you could only eat vegetables, hey, you could only eat fats only eat proteins only do this only do that only do strength training only do Olympic lifting only do hit training that the younger generation saw that as if like, let’s say your parents had their whole house with antiques and there was clutter everywhere, then you would probably grow up and say I hate clutter.  

Steve Washuta: I want to be a minimalist. So these younger kids are seeing all these rules and regulations and are going you know what, fuck it. There are no rules, there are no regulations, eat whatever you want. Do whatever you want flexible dieting, do whatever.   So now you have like a political esque two ends of the spectrum, where you have people who say only eat oranges at 4pm. And then you have other people who say basically you could eat whatever you want eat doughnuts and Fritos.  

Steve Washuta: And you’re gonna be fine. And we have no middle ground. And in sort of rational voices in the industry, how do we fix that? Do you see the same problem that I do? Or am I just an AI overplaying this?  

Daniel DeBrocke   Yeah, I mean, you’re gonna find, I think, polarization or sort of divergence, regardless of what market you’re in. And I mean, so here’s the thing, a lot of people will say knowledge is power.    But that’s not even remotely true. If it were even minimally true, people who read self help books would not need self help books, they’d be good, you know, you read the book, you’re good to go. And so it’s the integration of actual knowledge into your life.  

Daniel DeBrocke   And then basically, the outcomes determine how accurate that information actually is. So if I believe the carbohydrates make me fat, and then I eat a bunch of carbohydrates, but I’m still in a calorie deficit, and I’m losing weight.     And okay, well, clearly, that’s not the case. Or at least, that’s not the entire picture. Right? So So, I think a lot of the times, when you have all this information out there, people lack just general critical thinking skills.  

Daniel DeBrocke   You know, you ask someone why they believe in something, and they give you a very superficial answer. That sounds nice. And the moment you ask any sort of follow up questions, there’s nothing that there’s no substance behind it.  So I think there’s just sort of a general naivety and a general lack of awareness around the beliefs that individuals have a lack of desire maybe to challenge their own perspectives, you know, and this, this happens to everyone.  

Daniel DeBrocke   It’s not like, I’m not part of this, you know, and this is actually something that happened recently, to me, I was having conversation with someone. And I was like, you know, operating in a certain way, behaving in a certain way, and that I had a conversation with someone, they’re like.   Well, maybe you just need to update your values. I was like, What do you mean? They’re like, will you were that person? But that was years ago? Are you still that person? Do you still value those things?  

Daniel DeBrocke   And as obvious and as stupid as that sounds, that was a big wake up call for me, because I realized, hey, you know what, no, these are not my values anymore. My values have changed. But I think it’s very easy just to sort of go on, operating under the assumption that this is still true.     Or at least it’s still applies to whatever context that it’s in. So I think there’s that. I think that social media has a lot of positives. But I think it’s a tool. And I think it’s basically a tool that a lot of people abuse,  

Daniel DeBrocke   I kind of see it, like, almost like alcohol, where, you know, if some people use it, and they can use it as celebration tools and things like that, that’s fine. But unfortunately, a lot of people basically use it.    like a fucking stupid frat house, where they just party all the time and get super hammered. You know, they go on social media, and they do scroll, and then they just get into these little internet beefs. And it’s super toxic, like, it’s super, super toxic.  

Daniel DeBrocke   and then you basically just end up, you know, internalizing all these little sound bites that have no context, no nuance, and they sort of erode your ability to actually think for yourself, and sit down and read a book, or be patient or not have some sort of external stimuli all the time.     And I think that that’s a really big problem. And I mean, the literature is really clear on this too, as social media use goes up, depression, anxiety, low self esteem, all these things start to rise proportionately, in a lot of cases.  

Daniel DeBrocke   And the thing is, people will say the opposite, because there actually is research showing that social media use actually increased the self esteem and happiness. And or maybe that’s not exactly precise enough, but it can have a positive influence. So positive self effect, let’s say, as a more broad scope term.      But when you really dive into it, that’s actually not true at all. It’s, it’s one of those situations where there’s almost like a survivorship bias where individuals, like who aren’t going to be affected by it are going to remote report either positive or neutral effects.  

Daniel DeBrocke   But then you see individuals who maybe have some sort of predisposition to be negatively affected, because, you know, let’s say they’re not mentally tough, or they’re not as resilient or whatever you want to call it, it could be something completely different than that.    But then those people experience very serious side effects at times. So I mean, there’s there’s a whole host of things, but again, the internet and especially social media rewards, click Beatty stuff that rewards controversy.  

Daniel DeBrocke   it rewards people being angry and frustrated, because people engage a whole lot more with, you know, inflammatory comments than they do anything positive. And, and so basically, the algorithm just feeds that to you more and more and more, because you engage with it.    So you’re literally teaching it, how to make you angry, depressed, how to serve you content that is just like bad, basically just teaches you a lot of really negative things. And again, like I said, that’s not necessarily the fault of social media, it’s a matter of incentives.  

Daniel DeBrocke   And individuals who are disciplined enough to use this tool appropriately, can fall into that trap. And so I think most people lack discipline. I mean, that’s not really a matter of question, which is why there’s millionaires are a rarity.      People who aren’t overweight and obese are a rarity. In fact, I think obesity just recently crossed the threshold of now being a bigger problem to health and starvation across the world. Which is a astonishing, like fucking astonishing, that now they’re literally eating themselves to death. It’s like, mind boggling. better rate than starvation anyways.  

Steve Washuta: Yeah. And you know that the other heart hard part as a health and fitness professional, let’s, let’s say even 25 years ago, if you’re in a gym, and Daniel has principles and ideologies that he preaches to his clients, there’s probably not a lot of, like, immediate pushback, or there’s not a lot of other ideas floating around that seem like they’re contradictory to yours.  

Steve Washuta:   But it’s really impossible to go on social media now and not see a bunch of people who contradict your ideas. And for some people, instead of just saying, they have a different way of doing this, or or maybe their way works for their people, my way works for my people, and all of our ways can work.  

Steve Washuta: They feel like it’s been used as like weaponry, like that person said, You can’t eat vegetables and I tell my clients, they can eat vegetables, so they are attacking me and people don’t look at information as How should I ingest this, take this in my own way. They find it to be an attack. And that’s a problem.  

Daniel DeBrocke   Yeah, I mean, there’s a lot of stuff to that. And I don’t know, you know, I’ve definitely been sucked into that in the past. Now, when I’m on social media, like, so if I’m scrolling, and I see one of your posts, I’m gonna like it, I’m going to save it.   \   And I’m going to maybe try and share it with someone because I want to help you out. You know what I mean? Because you’re doing good work, you’re helping people. But I don’t really like engage in social media anymore.  

Daniel DeBrocke   Because I just noticed that when I used to do that, I would just like I was, like, I’m someone who definitely is a little bit more susceptible to that type of negative spiraling, because like, I have a temper, and certain things just piss me off.      And, like, I’m pretty chill for the most part, but I think I’m chill because I specifically manage my environment. And that was one thing that I definitely noticed that I had to do. And so now that I don’t do anymore, like people will shit on me for the most arbitrary things every now and then.  

Daniel DeBrocke   And it’s like, okay, all right, that’s fine. Like we disagree. And like, they’ll ask or like, I’ll post something. And they’ll be like, Well, what about this? And I’m like, Yep, I talked about that in the post. And it’s an order of magnitude, like, you think that it’s significant enough to stop someone.     I think it’s only significant enough to be a barrier, but therefore, you can still overcome it. And that’s where we disagree. And that’s okay. Like, Well, what about this? And I’m like, Look, dude, I explained it. If you’re not happy with that, that’s okay. We disagreed. That’s why yeah, there’s literally actually  

Steve Washuta: because it’s their interpretation. You You were you were stating a fact or a study or saying one particular thing. And for some reason, they took an offensive interpretation, they saw one piece of that and said, Oh, looks like you know, Daniel, saying that you shouldn’t do straight bar or benchpress or something.  

Steve Washuta: And if that person feels like, that’s an important piece to them, and their training, and before you know it, like they are now riled up because they feel like you’re attacking them when, when you had nothing, it had nothing to do with him in the first place.  

Daniel DeBrocke   I mean, oftentimes the people who Yeah, the people who are doing that stuff, it’s like, I didn’t even know you existed. Until you commented on my thing, you know, and so it’s like, okay, like, being angry, call me stupid. Like, I just, I don’t care.    Like it’s, I’m so past the point of caring what other people think of me, especially because I think this was kind of like a, you know, one of the benefits is, you know, as you know, I’m obviously very outspoken, and about things that I believe in.  

Daniel DeBrocke   And if I have an opinion, I don’t shy away from it. It’s like, if it’s not popular, that’s okay. I don’t mind you know, but I think also because of that, that’s taking up my skin a little bit. At first, I was super sensitive, especially if there was like someone so I remember.      A long time ago, I think I made a post. I did some like sort of data analysis post and I was discussing about I was discussing IQ and heritability. I think this is unrelated to fitness. It was just a post that I made when I like when I had Facebook a long time ago.  

Daniel DeBrocke   And do you know Greg knuckles? I don’t. So he’s a big guy in the fitness space. And he messaged me privately. Greg is actually like, just a phenomenal guy. So every interaction I’ve had with him has always been super positive.     He is like the nicest guy. He’s was so helpful. He’s helped me out a ton in my career. And so I have nothing but positive things to say about it. So he messaged me privately, he was like, Hey, I was just wondering if you would be willing to like, Are you open to learning about IQ?  

Daniel DeBrocke   And it was obviously in response to my post. And I was like, yeah, absolutely. And he handled that, like just a total pro. He like, he was like, Oh, you’re a fucking idiot. You mess this up. But I’ve been very gracious. And so he was very gracious to me.  And I’ve always found that the people who I actually genuinely respect and admire, never look to shut you down or call you an idiot, or at least I’ve never experienced it. They’re always like, Oh, well, well, what about this, like, it’s very cordial.  

Daniel DeBrocke   It’s super respectful, because like, to get to the level that they were at, they had to make at least as many mistakes if not more than I had to make, because they’re ahead of me, you know.   And so yeah, but meanwhile, the people who are just want to talk crap, or sort of defame you or pretend like you’re saying something or not, or whatever it might be. You look at their lives and you’re like, Okay, what have you done?  

Daniel DeBrocke   Like, What have you accomplished? Who are you? You’re gonna tell me, I’m an idiot, and I don’t know what I’m talking about. Cool. Show me your physique. Show me a physique photo for yourself. What’s your total in powerlifting? It’s like, oh, you’re fucking fat.    You’re a slob. You’re weak as shit. And you’re going to tell me, okay, go fuck yourself, you know? So it’s just like, it’s nine times out of 10. It’s the people who can’t do anything who haven’t done anything who want to tell the rest of the world.  

Daniel DeBrocke   Why, you know, know what you’re saying is wrong. And it’s like, Dude, you’re just trying to validate your own ineptitude. That’s it. So that’s a lot of that. Don’t sell me a story that you bought into it. cuz it’s nonsense, you know,  

Steve Washuta: while staying on that, Daniel that people do that with studies all the time, right? So they’ll, you’ll say something in particular, right? And there’s always a study that that sort of pushes back another study, right,    I can find a study that says that your study is wrong. And we could just go study for study all day long. And like, a lot of times people don’t have the studies in front of them.  

Steve Washuta: So you’re just believing their interpretation of said study, and not not looking at the conclusions yourself? How do you deal with that, when people just kind of throw that back in your face and go? Well, I have a study that says otherwise?  

Daniel DeBrocke   I’ll be honest, I almost never get that I used to. But I think because a lot of my writing is so research heavy. People just don’t do it anymore, because they’re not done.  \ Because the number of times I’ve had people cite studies that supposedly contradict what I was saying, I’ll pull it up. And I’ll be like, did you read the study? Like, yeah, like, No, you didn’t, because one, it actually has nothing to do with what you were talking about.  

Daniel DeBrocke   So clearly, you actually didn’t read it, too. It actually supports my position. So you just shared a study that you believe shares your plate and supports you. But it actually supports my perspective, which means you clearly didn’t read it, you don’t understand it. So it’s like, you know what he tried to do. And people just throw around studies as if they’re like, as if that’s evidence, it’s like, first of all, a research paper is only one form of evidence.  

Daniel DeBrocke   And a lot of the times, it’s not even the best quality evidence, like most of the highest quality evidence is actually not studied. And if anyone wants to debate me on that, I would absolutely encourage that.   Because, like, for the simple fact that we’re able to do more in practice, because we don’t have constraints on research that slow that process down. So simply because we’re not as constrained we can actually do a whole lot more.  

Daniel DeBrocke   You know what I mean? Like, how many how many studies are there on the SSB squat? There’s like, five. You know, we knew SP squats worked for like, decades before there was even a single study.  How did we know you know what I mean? And so the time course, you can figure things out as much faster. So there’s, if you look at all of the things we know about sports science, when you look at how much of that is studied, it’s such a small amount.  

Daniel DeBrocke   Now, don’t get me wrong, that is super valuable. And it sheds light on the rest of things. But if you’re taking it in isolation, one that’s not how research is done.      It’s like you look at evidence in aggregate, you look at it in its entirety, don’t just say, Oh, well, this study says isn’t the study says that it’s like, okay, well, one, what is the aggregate data? Say? Two, how does that actually apply to this particular situation?  

Daniel DeBrocke   Is there good evidence to the contrary, that exists either within the literature or just even anecdotally? So here’s a great example of this. I’ll give two actually. So one is what all this research is coming out saying that there’s no relationship between injury and technique.  

Daniel DeBrocke   Any dummy who is trained, knows that’s complete bullshit. Complete, like 100%. That’s fucking wrong. But why did the research find it? Well, because the relationship is not linear.   But why would you expect it to be linear? You know what I mean? Why would you expect a one to one relationship between technique and injury, especially given the variability between individuals just even on things like tissue resilience, you know what I mean?  

Daniel DeBrocke   So, so expect that just demonstrates how little someone understands about injury, Injury mechanisms, and just even individual variability? Right, let alone all of the other things that are actually involved.     But we had doctors and PhDs I’m not going to call anyone out. There are a lot of very famous people in the powerlifting and evidence based community that went on podcast and we’re shouting from the rooftops.  

Daniel DeBrocke   It technique has no relationship with it. And it’s like, You’re a fucking idiot. Like, you’re, you’re too smart for your own good. Because you can’t even see the forest for the trees, like you’re looking at this research paper, and you’re completely ignoring your real world experience.    So So that’s one example. Another example is the whole obesity isn’t a choice thing. It’s like, that’s just so stupid. Because if you say obesity is not a choice, that health cannot be a choice. It’s like, the entire premise of that argument is just so absurd.  

Daniel DeBrocke   And there’s research to support that. It’s like, okay, go ahead. Like you do that, and I’m going to do my thing. And then let’s talk in five years, when you have fucking diabetes, and you’re dead.     You know, and I’m just chilling here to leaner body fat percentage, right? Go Go ahead. Like how many 500 pound? You know, 40 year olds do, you know? None, because they all die. You know what I mean? It’s like, don’t tell me that obesity, like has no bearing or like to healthy to resize things like you can’t be healthy at Every Size. It’s not my  

Steve Washuta:    No, but there’s like, there’s studies to prove it apparently, because they get people who are credentialed and they use it as weaponry and they they form these studies like that you and I can easily poke holes in and have again, contradictory studies to say otherwise.   But it’s unfortunate because people buy into it. So people don’t have that mindset that you do. Like, hey, sometimes common sense and experience has to override these nonsense studies, but they don’t They don’t see it that way.  

Steve Washuta: My wife who’s a pediatrician has sat in on like continuing education, things where someone came in and basically said, You can’t call people obese. It’s like having cancer. So we don’t say your cancer, we say you have cancer get to say you have obesity.     And she’s like, No, that’s not how it works like you can’t like, just because you found a study that ties some sort of genetic relation to the propensity for you to get this or make it difficult to deal with doesn’t actually doesn’t escape the fact that this is a lifestyle disease. Yeah,  

Daniel DeBrocke   and it’s really not genetics are not a determining factor when it comes to obesity, right. It’s a variable, but it’s certainly not the determining factor. And that should be very clear, because it’s like, it’s so much more driven by lifestyle.    And people will see like, oh, socio economic, this socio economic factors, although they are related, they’re certainly not reliably related. And that’s cross culturally across the world, to obesity rates.  

Steve Washuta: I think that’s important as an A very important point. And I actually kind of want you to stick on that. Because, you know, if you, you’re talking about poverty in Africa, there’s not obesity rates in Somalia.    So it’s not, it’s not poverty specific, right, we have to look at the mechanisms that are causing the obesity, it’s yeah, if you want to say poverty causes food stamps.  

Steve Washuta: maybe food stamps don’t allow you to purchase more expensive food, and now you have to purchase worse food. Well, I can see maybe a cultural tie that way. Yeah.  

Daniel DeBrocke   So that’s the thing. Like there’s so many different variables that go into it. So when people are like, Oh, it’s, it’s driven by this. So? Well, it’s not exactly driven by that. But yeah, that’s a variable.     But there’s like dozens and dozens and dozens of variables, you know. And so, you know, it’s, ironically enough, actually, socio economic strata only seems to correlate to obesity.  

Daniel DeBrocke   For Caucasian women, I think it’s between 30 and 39. In the United States, I’m pretty sure that’s the only reliable indicator of like, the only predict reliable predictive measure anyways.      But outside of that, it’s not a reliable indicator, which again, just goes to show that it’s like, hey, it’s more complicated than just socioeconomic status. It’s not to say it’s not relevant it is, but it’s not the determining factor.  

Daniel DeBrocke   And it’s pretty clear at this point, or it should be pretty clear that there is no single determining factor for obesity, it’s like all of these things, that, that, that interact with each other and have some sort of reciprocal relationship.     it ends up being like, a one plus one equals five sort of situation, right? Where, you know, if you have overweight or obese parents, the likelihood that you’re going to be obese, when you grew up, increases by 12 times.  

Daniel DeBrocke   So 12 orders of fucking astronomical, you know, if you’ve been sexually abused, your likelihood of developing meetings sort of goes up, I think two to four times. And that also scales depending on the number of times you’ve been sexually abused.    And then you look at assault as well, and how that scales to obesity. And I think it’s also two to four times, but some of these things aren’t quite fresh in my memory. So maybe don’t quote me on that.  

Daniel DeBrocke   I know that 12 times probability is is is accurate, but I might be conflating overweight, an eating disorder. So maybe don’t quote me on that. But, but it’s something something to that effect.    So there’s there’s so many different variables that go into these things. Actually, I wrote like an 18,000 or 17,000 word paper on this, like, maybe a year ago or something like that. So there’s there’s a lot that goes into obesity, that’s for sure. Yeah,  

Steve Washuta:   and all health issues. It’s rarely one particular variable, right? It’s always there’s always a story behind it with three or four or a dozen or two dozen things that are interconnected.  \Now, which one is weighted more? That’s that’s where the argument comes in. Right? Which one matters more, and there’s science behind some of it. And some of it is just as obvious, right?  

Steve Washuta:   So when we’re talking about obesity, yeah, if you’re more likely to be obese coming from an obese family, it’s not a genetic factor. It’s usually a cultural factor, meaning the food in the house.   and the way in which they go about eating is going to be passed on to you from a from a day to day perspective, and how you handle food as opposed to there being the genetic tie. And I think that’s where people get confused.  

Daniel DeBrocke   Yeah, there’s a big difference in modeling behavior that people sometimes conflate with genetics, and you’re just like, Alright, whatever, man.    But it’s funny because even even the same mechanism can have a different order, like it can have a different magnitude of effect, depending on the individual context. So I’m just gonna throw around some arbitrary numbers.  

Daniel DeBrocke   The numbers themselves are irrelevant. It’s just there to kind of, you know, create a point. So let’s say your environment contributes 15% to obesity or something like that, right? Hypothetically. Well, it might contribute 15% for this person, or for this person, it’s 45%.  

Daniel DeBrocke   For the next person, it’s only 5%. So the same variable can have a different magnitude of effect, depending on the individual context as well. And you’re going to look at distributions and see averages, so you can be like.    Okay, this, we estimate has roughly this average, but it’s like those are averages. It’s averages over a distribution. So it’s like, it’s, you know, there’s also individual variability in those things.  

Daniel DeBrocke   Because like, for instance, if we go back to what you were talking about with your with your wife, and the whole fat shaming thing, you know, about, oh, you can’t see obese because blah, blah, blah. It’s like, there’s actually research that shows that men actually respond very differently.  

Daniel DeBrocke   And this should not be surprising at all to women. When it comes to either criticism, or fat shaming, right? Women tend to not respond very well to that men actually sometimes see a positive effect on fat shaming.     And now that’s going to be a really controversial statement. But then I would ask you, okay, what is actually the operational definition of fat shaming, and throughout the entire literature, you can look at it.  

Daniel DeBrocke   And unless there’s been some research done in the last six, six months that I’ve not read, there is zero, agreed upon definition for what it means to fat shame, zero. Okay. It is such a massive umbrella term that is so nebulous.  

Daniel DeBrocke   As you mentioned, simply measuring someone’s body weight, at the doctor’s office, is also a form of fat shaming, according to the broad definitions. So it’s like, how can we even make these claims that fat shaming is bad? If we don’t even know what the fuck that means? What is fat shaming? You know, now, it’s, it should be pretty apparent two things, one, being a shitty person to people and shaming them and stuff like that. Yeah, that’s probably not a good thing.  

Daniel DeBrocke   And for most people, it’s probably going to have a negative effect. Okay, so I’m not I’m not arguing, I’m just saying, like, if you actually want to understand how to treat things, and how to deal with people, you got to be real precise in terms of what you’re defining and how you’re approaching things.  

Daniel DeBrocke   Because, you know, I’m sure you know this as well. It’s like, I’m not really a rah, rah, rah type coach, and I don’t know what kind of coach you are. But I’m not going to be cursing or swearing at my athletes. It’s just not who I am.    However, if I’m at a competition, and we’re at some like big event, and they’re trying to break, you know, national record, or world record, or, or they’re like the American Pro, or there’s some big meat, we’re chips on the line.  

Daniel DeBrocke   And like, and I know that my athlete like, I know what they’re gonna respond to, I’m going to do that. So maybe I’d never do that to other people.     But in this specific context, I might get in their face and be like, you fucking pussy, like, you need to get out there, like really get in their face and amp them up and like, get them in the right headspace. So they can go out there and perform really well.  

Daniel DeBrocke   It’s like, Is that the best thing to do? Across the board? Absolutely not. Is that even the best thing to do for this same athlete in another context? Also? Probably not. But it’s like, you know, everything that people do is so contextual.     So to say that this is bad, and this is good. It’s just not true. You know, because for instance, me like, I am an individual who literally got shamed out of being fat. You know, it had a much, much more positive effect on me than it did negative.  

Daniel DeBrocke   Were there residual effects and negativity. Yes, there were. But I am so much more grateful that I did that. And that those people were honest, like, my friends, were honest with me about that.    And I’m so much more grateful that they were and that they actually like would, you know, I guess for all intents and purposes, essentially, tease and bully me into just getting into better shape.  

Daniel DeBrocke   I’m so glad for that. Now, is that a good solution? No, I’m not saying that. I’m just saying that you can’t just say that this is bad. And this is good across the board, because it’s just not true.  

Steve Washuta: Sure, and I think you hit on something that’s really important. And you could add to my statement here is that when designing plans, you said this earlier with men and women, there is a there is a difference.      Now, obviously, we want to look at the the individual, and what drives them and their characteristics and what motivates them as you as you just said, but there are differences amongst men and women, we have to take those into consideration.  

Steve Washuta: I see a lot of like female dieticians, who are all about flexible dieting. We’re all about intuitive eating that that actually does sometimes work with women. It doesn’t really work with men, right? Men need more rigidity, a lot of times in their plans.      That’s why we have successful militaries and armies, right? It’s not because they say, Hey, do whatever you want. It’s not because we have very particular training that they have to adhere to.  

Steve Washuta: And I think that it gets flipped both ways. A lot of men are too rigid with their female clients are not flexible enough. And I think although we have to look at our clients as individuals, we should always take the sex into consideration when building plants. Yeah,  

Daniel DeBrocke   I mean, so So there’s definitely temperamental differences that you’d see across the board right, but again, it kind of people exist on a distribution right.    So, I would say that that would be very similar statement to saying, you know, smaller athletes can generally higher taller like can start can generally tolerate higher volumes, higher intensities and higher frequencies as a general A rule that’s going to be correct, right?  

Daniel DeBrocke   If you look across the distribution and be like, yep, that’s a pretty clear pattern that comes out. But, you know, if you’re working with individuals, I’ve definitely coached tiny females who basically their training looks like a super heavyweight, lower frequency, they’ve got to take an ab week model.  

Daniel DeBrocke   because they can’t handle heavy training all in the same week. You know what I mean? So it’s like, I think there’s definitely, and this is not really disputed at all, or shouldn’t be, there’s definitely temperamental differences.    And so how you deal with men and women can definitely be different on average. But I think that that’s just a good starting point, you know, so we still have to take every single person exactly like, you know, who were you.  

Daniel DeBrocke   Because we have all this data that I’ve, you know, sort of taken in, I have a general idea of who you are. But let’s see, let’s like, let’s kind of start to refine it a little bit more and get a little bit more clarity on you as a specific individual.    And as well as like understanding the context. And then that kind of like, really determines how we might, I guess, adapt that information to apply to their situation. And so,  

Steve Washuta: which is the mistake when people only have one ideology and try to fit that to the person as opposed to having multiple tools that can fit to the person, right?      If I’m, if I only if I only preach intermittent fasting, well, I might have a client who that just doesn’t work for, right, they need more. They want to eat more throughout the day, or only you have a client who eats intuitive eating, maybe they just they want a plan laid out in front of them.  

Steve Washuta   They don’t want intuitive eat. So I think, like you said, it’s important that we as coaches, look at the person and then forming the plan around them rather than having a particular ideology that we try to map on everyone else.  

Daniel DeBrocke   Yeah. And at the end of the day, it’s about outcomes, right? Like, is what you’re doing working? Yes. Okay, then it works. That’s if, you know, like, I don’t give a shit. So I’ve heard people say, like, oh, I never used deficits on sumo deadlift.      That’s so stupid. It’s like, cool. That’s fine. I’ve used deficits on sumo deadlift for some of my athletes, and it has helped them tremendously. So like, what’s what’s your point? You know what I mean? Like, it worked. That’s it. That’s under discussion.  

Daniel DeBrocke   You know, if you don’t like to use it, and you find other stuff works better, that’s great. But I’m using it. And it’s working very well. Do I use it all the time? No, not really. But like, you know what I mean?   So I think sometimes people get too caught up in like, what other people think, and they’re like, Oh, well, this should be the way because that’s what the research says, this should be this way.  

Daniel DeBrocke   because that’s what someone’s gonna said, it’s like, man, if something works. Really, that’s, that’s it, you know. And if you the more that you start to understand those things, it probably works for the same reason.     That is, it probably works, because the principle that’s driving your progress is also a similar principle that is driving that individuals comment or a particular research paper or whatever, right?  

Daniel DeBrocke   But there’s the principle and then there’s the application of the principles. And so if you don’t understand the principle, your application is going to be really limited to just a narrow context that that it was discussed, and that you happen to hear it.      And you know, and so having a deeper understanding of, well, whatever it is, you want to understand, I think, is pretty important, because then applicability and integration, just get expanded, like tenfold.  

Steve Washuta: So, and then as the zoom out perspective, where if we don’t get into all the minutiae, it’s just oh, if both people are working really hard, and they’re doing these exercises, they’re likely going to get to their goal, because they’re both working really hard.  

Steve Washuta   If I if you know, if my goal is to jump three inches higher, and I all I do is plyometrics. But I’m doing them twice a day, and I’m doing them the right way.      And then someone else is training with Daniel, and they’re really focused on strength training more, right, they’re building the musculature, we both might be able to jump two inches higher.  

Steve Washuta: by the end of our six month training, doesn’t mean one person is right or wrong. We both worked really hard and got to our goals. I think there’s too much focus on the minutiae and not How hard are you working?  

Daniel DeBrocke   Yeah, yeah. And I mean, at the end of the day, it’s like, if you have the result, it’s really hard to argue with that, you know, because there’s a lot of things that are more complicated than just a single input, right?   So for instance, the comparison you gave is Plyometrics, compared to strength training, you know, and so it’s like, yeah, we’ll plyometrics are definitely going to help. But if you don’t have good strength base, they’re not going to help you like you’re going to be really constrained.  

Daniel DeBrocke   But at the same time, if you just do strength training, that’s going to help because going to increase force production. So your superpower to bodyweight ratio is going to be, you know, more favorable for for jumping and things like that.   But again, then you reach a point of diminishing returns where greater force production doesn’t necessarily increase the rate of force production.  

Daniel DeBrocke   And there’s a lot of other things that are also involved in that. So it’s like, they’ll both take you up to a point, but then at some point, you might need to change this and do that. And so it’s like, two things might be right in one instance.    And then those exact same things might be wrong. In another instance, you know, and it might be be within the same subject, but it just depends on their level of advancement.  

Daniel DeBrocke   And so yeah, it’s, it’s, um, it’s definitely interesting. I think it was kind of the fun part of coaching and training and all that stuff anyways, you gotta have to figure shit. Well, that  

Steve Washuta: that’s one place where we disagree, because that’s why I wouldn’t want to work with athletes because to me, that’s not fun. I think there’s so much. Well, I’ll tell you why. Because there are, there are so many different things you can do with an athlete to make them better because they’re already athletes.  

Steve Washuta: But it’s what you want to do is find the best thing, right? So it’s like, if, if I take an 18 year old who wants to become a hockey player, he’s already really good. Let’s say he wants to go to college to play hockey.     I mean, I could literally just have him do push ups and sit ups and jog and he’s likely going to be better than he was beforehand, right? Just because he’s working out.  

Steve Washuta:  I mean, he’s getting better in a sport and the actual skill set of the sport but what is the what is the optimal workout for him? What is the best? Is it is strength training?     Is it a combination of strength training, a body weighs combination of cardio and this and I think that’s a to find that recipe to find that concoction. There needs to be a lot of trial and error. And I think that’s, that’s why you enjoy it. But I that’s not something that I think I would enjoy. Yeah,  

Daniel DeBrocke   that’s fair. I mean, to each their own right, I guess I just enjoy it because it’s like, you sort of expand the scope of your capabilities, right? Like, I think you know, so at the moment, I don’t coach bodybuilders in contest prep, because I’ve never done a contest prep.  

Daniel DeBrocke   I coach bodybuilders offseason. But generally not contest prep, especially not enhanced, because I don’t know anything about like the BD side of things. So that’s not something I really want to get into.     But, but natural bodybuilders like for me, I’m going to be coaching my my girlfriend, so I have coached my girlfriend for about five years now. And I’ll be coaching her after she’s got a big meet in Vegas.  

Daniel DeBrocke   And then after that, for powerlifting news, and after that, she wants to do like a figure show. Right? And so I was like, Okay, well, you know, we’ll find your coach, and she’s, like, neuro want you to do it.      And I was like, okay, but I’ve never done this, like, you know, she’s like, neuro, I trust you, I want you to do it. So I’m like, Alright, so I’m figuring that out. And she’s going to be kind of like a little guinea pig.  

Daniel DeBrocke   But, you know, there’s a lot of stuff that I don’t know, there’s probably a lot of mistakes I’m gonna make. And, but at the end of the day, like, I just think it’s gonna be really fun process of like, figuring all that stuff out and looking back on it being like.    Oh, wow, like, you know, I should have done this. And I could have done that. And then also, like, just talking to friends of mine, who are, you know, IFBB pros, or like former Olympia, you know, competitors, and just being like, hey, like, how would you approach this?  

Daniel DeBrocke   How would you do that? How would you do that, and it’s just like, you just get so much more insight. And then a lot of the times to it ends up translating into just    better outcomes with, with athletes and other areas that aren’t even necessarily related. Just because you’re, at least for me, anyways, I find that my perspective is a little bit different. Like it just kind of shifts.  

Daniel DeBrocke   And so you see the same thing. But now you kind of have a little bit more of an in depth understanding of that. It’s almost like, you read a book, and then you read it the second time, the third time, the fourth time, and every time you’re getting more stuff.  

Daniel DeBrocke   From it, you’re extracting more information, you’re seeing it from a slightly different perspective. And you’re like, Oh, I didn’t notice that the first time I read it. So I really liked that aspect of it.  

Steve Washuta:  You know, that makes perfect sense. When I used to work with older golfers, these were recreational golfers, not people who are doing it, you know, professionally, I just I learned so much more about the body than I had known before.      Because I had to look at what sort of optimize their motions going through, you know, sort of from like, okay, they can’t get this the swing proper, because their lat is too tight.  

Steve Washuta: So they can’t get their arms in motion in the position that they want, or they’re tiring out because they’re because their rhomboids are overworked.     And in the golf swing, they’re swinging too many times. And all these little things that you learn from, from the bigger picture perspective about health and fitness, when you start working with athletes, I think is, is really great and expands your horizons, like you said, yeah,  

Daniel DeBrocke   yeah, it’s, it’s fun. It’s interesting.  

Steve Washuta: So let’s go back to personal training. We hit on this a little bit beforehand. But I want to ask you a very specific question. I think I came across your posts maybe two or three days ago, and I wrote in on it where you said something to the effect of.    hey, you know, people say all the time, you don’t need to be in good shape to be a coach or a personal trainer in the fitness and health industry. That’s bullshit, more or less, right. And I don’t, I don’t disagree with that sentiment. I don’t necessarily think it’s the highest weighted thing.  

Steve Washuta: But if a family member were to call you Daniel and say, Hey, I can’t work with you. I don’t live close enough. I’m looking for an in person, personal trainer. What should I be looking for? How would you sort of lay out the requirements are the things that are important? Yeah.  

Daniel DeBrocke   So I think what I said was, like dumb shit that smart people say and it was like, your physique has almost no relevance or no relationship to your ability as a coach, that’s very clearly stupid for what should be very, very obvious reasons.  

Steve Washuta: But it’s not in 2024. People will argue against that somehow, right? So  

Daniel DeBrocke   for instance, if you say someone’s physique has no bearing on their knowledge or ability, right? Well, what are you actually saying? Right? Essentially, you’re saying that experience, their experience, has almost no relevance or bearing on their ability to coach.   Well, okay, let’s put that into another situation, see how well that does. You’re fresh out of med school. Let’s perform a really complex brain surgery that almost no one’s ever done before. Go right ahead.  

Daniel DeBrocke   You’ve never, you know, been in surgery with a live individual, you’ve only ever practice on cadavers. You’ve never seen like a real person under their life is at stake. There’s a 50% chance they’re not going to make it through this.    How is that going to affect you? Are you going to remember everything, that kind of pressure, you know, it’s put into another scenario. You’re a fighter. It’s your first fight. You’ve been training for four years.  

Daniel DeBrocke   And you’re very good boxer kickboxer whatever. But now you go out and you’re in front of 1000s people in your own life television.     If you’ve never done that, you have no idea what that it wipes your fucking brain, you forget who you are, you’re just like, Oh, my God, like you’re so overwhelmed, you are not going to be as good as you are in the gym.  

Daniel DeBrocke   Because there’s so much new stimulus that you forget it, you don’t have the same patterns and repetitions. And so experience very clearly matters. And it matters a lot, but not just experience experience with success. Right.  

Daniel DeBrocke   And so, you know, a lot of the times when people will try and imply when they say your physique has almost no bearing on your ability as a coach, a lot of the times what they’re implying is that education does.   Your education has much greater bearing on your ability to coach and I would strongly disagree with that. I think that if you’re going to say that someone’s physique has no bearing on their ability to coach, I would say that statement is at least equally true for an individual in their education.  

Daniel DeBrocke   Right. And I’ll point out a very obvious example that a lot of people are not aware of. I believe at this point, it’s still the third leading cause of death in America, but I’m not 100% Positive.    But it’s definitely within the top five. It’s called I intragenic deaths, which is just a really fancy way to hide what it actually is, which is medical negligence. medical negligence is the third leading cause of death.  

Daniel DeBrocke   In the United States, we’re talking about medical doctors, and nurses, highly educated, highly trained individuals, and people die not because they’re like, oh, shit, it was, you know, they had, you know, like, 30 3070 chance of living and they just didn’t pull through.     It’s like neuro, like, you prescribe them a drug that they were allergic to, in spite of knowing that it was on their fucking chart, like just full on mistakes, right? So it’s like, is an education, a guarantee that someone’s going to be good? No, it’s not.  

Daniel DeBrocke   It’s absolutely not. In fact, it’s even a logical fallacy called the appeal to authority fallacy. You cannot just say that someone’s good because they have an education. Because we see this in every single organization.     In fact, it’s a mathematical problem, right? So the Pareto distribution, you guys are aware of what the Pareto distribution is, it’s impossible to have everyone who’s, you know, equally qualified, right, you get roughly 80% of the work is sure 80% of the production is done by roughly 20%. of of the top performers.  

Daniel DeBrocke   Right? And so we have 80% of individuals producing 20%. That’s brutal, right? So you get this across all industries, all fields. So those things as a standalone metrics, I don’t think having a great physique as a standalone metric is a good thing, but it absolutely is fucking necessary.  

Daniel DeBrocke   And anyone who wants to argue this, it’s like okay, I want you to have a paper and on one side, put all of the top bodybuilders that have ever been created on the other side.   Sorry, on the one side, I want you to put all the coaches of all the top bodybuilders that have ever made on the other side, I want you to put the coaches of all the top bodybuilders who have ever been created that did not look right that were not bodybuilders that did not look fucking phenomenal.  

Daniel DeBrocke   And I’ll tell you what, you’re gonna find a couple of exceptions, but the overwhelming majority are going to be on this side. Okay, the majority like you’re not getting scientists or researchers coaching Olympia level bodybuilders.     You’re not You’re getting Other Olympians, bodybuilders, why is that? Why is it that basketball coach or basketball players become coaches? You know what I mean?  

Daniel DeBrocke   It’s like, it’s it’s so painfully obvious, and yet this is something that’s disputed. And a lot of the times I’ll hear things too, like, well, you know, I don’t have to be jacked if I want to be a hypertrophy coach, because I have other priorities in life.      Right? I hear that all the time. And I’m like, okay, but do you train? Well, yes, I train. Okay. How many times a week do you train? Like for? How long your sessions an hour? Okay, how long? Have you been training for seven years?  

Daniel DeBrocke   So you’re telling me training three to four times a week? For seven years for one hour? And you’re not able to get jacked? Are you joking? You know what I mean?   It’s like, you don’t know what the fuck you’re doing? And they’ll they’ll say, like, oh, well, it’s just not my priority. My priority. It’s like, no, no, like, You’re full of shit. You just don’t know how to do it. That’s all it is. Stop pretending like you have other priorities.  

Daniel DeBrocke   It’s like, that’s the stupidest thing that I’ve heard too. It’s like, well, it’s not my priority. But I’m a hypertrophy coach. You chose to dedicate your life and career and your interest on this one thing that you don’t have.    And you’re telling me it’s not a priority really? Like, are we? We’re seriously going to go to that level of just like gaslighting, like, go fuck yourself, you know? So I’m sorry. Like, I wanted to rant.  

Daniel DeBrocke   But that stuff is super annoying to me. So I would say, one, do they look the part two? Have they helped other people look the part or a cheat? You know, like, look, I’m talking about fuzzy, but I guess I’ll kind of expand that that discussion.     So do they have the results that you want? Have they had other people or helped other people get to the result that you that you want? How many people have they done that for?  

Daniel DeBrocke   What are other experts saying about them? And when I say expert, I mean people who are both highly educated as well as, you know, kind of in the trenches. So we can talk about, like researchers, as well as you know, actual athletes.   And then a big thing would be communication, like, How’s their communication? You know, do they genuinely care? Like, those are some huge things because like, I’m not gonna sit here and be like, I’m the best coach.  

Daniel DeBrocke   But I’ll tell you one thing, I really care about my athletes, I really care a lot about my clients, I care about their success, I care about their experience, I care about the results, I care about my reputation as a coach.     And because of that, I work really, really fucking hard to get them crazy results. And they work really hard because they see how invested I am. That alone is a really, really important thing.  

Daniel DeBrocke   Someone who genuinely cares. Someone who communicates someone who has a result who lives that lifestyle, and maybe they don’t anymore, but they did at one point, you know, so I, I was actually fortunate enough, I was hanging out with Ben Pakulski.   Last night, we had dinner and we were like chatting after season town. And, you know, like, he’s, I think now he’s like, 250. So he’s, he’s nowhere near as big as he used to be.  

Daniel DeBrocke   But on stage, I think he was like 290 or 300 pounds, you don’t feel like he was talking ginormous. You know, and so I don’t know, his stage body weight. But he was ginormous for us, like, but he was about 300 pounds.    We were talking about the other night, too. And it’s like, so he’s not as big now as he used to be, but he clearly looks at still. And maybe when he’s 60, he won’t.  

Daniel DeBrocke   But you can see, hey, he accomplished something really incredible. Like he was up there with Kai green and, and all of those guys, right.    And so you know, he’s someone who has a lot of cloud who has a lot of information. And a lot of other people look to him for advice, who are also highly respected. And he’s gotten a lot of people to an incredibly high level.  

Daniel DeBrocke   So it’s like, okay, he’s got the education, he walks the walk. He’s done this for a lot of other people. He’s got a lot of social proof and a lot of like social validation from other people who are super, super well educated and really qualified.    And he genuinely cares. You know. So I think that those are all really, really important qualities, when you’re looking for a coach.  

Daniel DeBrocke   If you look for just one of those, you’re probably not going to find a good coach, because someone who really cares, a lot of people who really care, but they fucking suck.     There’s a lot of people who are jacked, who really suck. There’s a lot of people who are super educated, who really suck.  

Daniel DeBrocke   There’s a lot of people who have great communication, but they suck as a coach, you know what I mean? So you kind of need all of them. And the more that you have, and the more overlap that you have, the better. I would say,  

Steve Washuta: Yeah, that’s a really good point. If you have the first four, you don’t have the communication and you sit down with someone who said no at all.     It’s not listening to you and your problems and your issues and have that strategic two way communication where you might want something a little bit different, they’re still not likely going to be a good coach.  

Steve Washuta: And I like how you did put a caveat towards the end of that answer where you said, they have done it at some point, because I think that’s also important.    You might have a guy like you’re just talking about who’s in their 50s and 60s, and they might not look the part now as much as they did 20 years ago, but they still had done it at some point you’ll see really the best Coaches.  

Steve Washuta: at least in other in the big four sports like in soccer, or basketball or football, they actually weren’t the best athletes, they were up there towards the top. But they didn’t have the best genetics.    And the reason why they’re the best coaches is because they have to work harder than everyone else. And they had to do all the little things to become great, because they didn’t have those super genetics, right, they weren’t born sort of the best of the best.  

Steve Washuta:   nd they were able to do that. So I do think that’s another, just like slight addition to that is that if you can be lucky enough to find those people who maybe didn’t have the genes and didn’t have, you know, all.   the things backing them and were still able to make it those people usually have even more information to give, because of all the extra things they had to go to to get to where their body was saying, Hey, this is really difficult for you to do.  

Daniel DeBrocke   Yeah, and again, it’s like, you know, people like to so every time I say this, the number one response I get is what about Boris Shaco? You know, so I don’t know if you know, Boris Shaco is, but he’s a powerlifting.      Coach, he’s the most decorated powerlifting coach in the world, I think he’s like, something like 39 or 42 world champions like gold medalists and world champions, like as his athletes.  

Daniel DeBrocke   So he’s incredibly decorated. But he’s like, in his 60s or something, you know, I always hear people bring him up. And I’m like, oh, Boris Shiko? You mean, the guy who was on the Russian national team when he was younger?     So the competitive athlete who is a pretty solid athlete? Is that who you’re giving me as an example? So you don’t even know who the fuck he is? Like, you know?    And it’s like, yeah, you know, there are people. So for instance, myself, like, I don’t have crazy genetics for strength. I just don’t, I have to work really, really hard.  

Daniel DeBrocke   And for me to squat 800 pounds, it’s probably going to take another five years, because I just don’t have the genetics for it. Like, I have to work just crazy fucking hard.     Do I work harder than anyone else? I don’t think so. Man, I think at a high level, like whenever I hear people being like, Oh, I work. I’m the hardest working. It’s like, No, you’re fucking not dude. Like, there’s so many people, like everyone at my gym works incredibly hard, incredibly hard.  

Daniel DeBrocke   So I can’t say that I work harder than anyone else. But I know I work really fucking hard. And a lot of them outpace me. That’s just it, the genetics, you know, and so I can’t do anything about that.    I so to be more patient, I just have to make sure I’m staying injury free. And I just have to, you know, do it for as long as it takes to get there.  

Daniel DeBrocke   So I know I can get to 800 pounds, I have to make sure that you know, a patient, I stay healthy. I get way bigger than I am right now. And, you know, eventually I’ll be able to do it. And we’ll we’ll see how it goes. So, speaking,  

Steve Washuta: speaking of working hard, we’re gonna move on to steroids. It’s a hot topic in all fitness and health industries.     My I guess, you know, big high level issue is that the people who are on performance enhancing drugs, neglect, sometimes to talk about the, what I believe is the most beneficial part.      And it’s the sort of the mental psychology portion behind it. You have extra drive, extra motivation, extra will, these are the things if you ask the general public, and you just take a poll and say, You know what, why? Why have you only gone to the gym once this week, they’ll say I’m tired.  

Steve Washuta: I just didn’t have the motivation, right? It’s the number one reason why people aren’t working out. They don’t have the motivation and drive.   And the performance enhancing drugs really helped that right, they really helped the drive and motivation to get in there. Forget about the the physiological benefits that you get from it.   But it’s sort of in my opinion, hidden. There’s a lot of people in the industry who don’t make that known. And they’ll say, you know, you need more drive, you need more motivation.  

Steve Washuta   It’s like, well, yeah, if you’re on trend and 600 milligrams a test, you have this motivation that this other 42 year old guy with low tests doesn’t have it. Am I wrong on that?      Is that not something that the the strength community hides? And and how do you how do you view that?  

Daniel DeBrocke   I’ve never really thought about that. Personally, I would, I’ve never noticed that either. I would, if I had to make a guess, I would probably suspect that the individuals who are going to take copious amounts of drugs are probably just more serious about their training anyways.      hence why they’re taking drugs. And you know, I’m not talking about the 17 year old who’s never lifted weights in the gym, and then he decides to jump on a cycle.  

Daniel DeBrocke   I’m talking about guys who are actually serious about training, a lot of like, because those are the only guys that like, I’m really exposed to, I don’t train at a commercial gym.     So I only trained with like, you know, pretty high level guys. Most of them are natural. But the ones who aren’t, we’re very, very serious about their training beforehand.    that drugs increase motivation, or really do anything of that nature. I think it’s more so just, you know, maybe a selection bias issue where the people who are more motivated know, are more dedicated and willing to just push the, you know, push the envelope and do whatever, you know.  

Daniel DeBrocke   it takes are also the individuals who are more willing to maybe use drugs, you know, so totally, yeah, I don’t know what effect it has on motivation, or any of that stuff, but that would kind of be like, my guess as to the relationship  

Steve Washuta: and your community is very specific. So maybe I should walk it back from your like the strength. I don’t mean the strength community insofar as like, people who are powerlifter and bodybuilders.  I should say, this is more of like, you know, the the 46 year old guy who talks about on Instagram, he wakes up at 4am. And you know, and works out twice and then and does whatever with his day and that you don’t have enough motivation.  

Steve Washuta: Sort of these guys are the Mark Wahlberg to the world. It’s like, well, you know, you’re, you’re 48, but you’re on, you’re on, you’re on TRT, like that’s why you have this additional motivation that the other average person doesn’t have.  

Daniel DeBrocke   So I  guess to clarify, I might have misunderstood what you’re asking, are you talking about the difference between PE D use, or like TR t versus someone specifically with low testosterone?

Steve Washuta:  I would say I would say TRT use nowadays isn’t just specifically about low T, they’ve dropped the levels of what low tea needs to be. So you can go to any doctor and be in your late 30s.  And they can consider you having low tea and you can be on TRT, and then your levels will be higher than they were in your 20s In a sense, right, it’s being used as a as being used in a way in which it’s, it’s, it’s a performance enhancing, but it’s not not for sport, I just mean for life.   

Daniel DeBrocke   I mean, so if you have low testosterone, and then you take testosterone, your motivation is definitely going to go up. Your your psychology is gonna go up your sense of self esteem and self like, there’s so many things like having low tea is is like essentially a precursor to a disease state.   Right? Your your risk of cardiac issues goes up, your mortality risk goes up exponentially your risk of like, just all sorts of things goes up.  

Daniel DeBrocke   And so especially like over time, right, so some of these things, some of the risk factors are measured over extended periods. And the risk is relevant to the time period that you’re measuring, if that makes sense.    And so if that’s the situation, then yeah, that definitely is gonna make a big difference, if it’s someone just would like normal, healthy testosterone levels.  

Daniel DeBrocke   And then they have someone who’s like, you know, taking TRT, or a little boost, I can maybe see a little bit of a boost in motivation. But yeah, I don’t know, I’m not sure about that.     I think that would be, you know, the initial context, I mentioned, probably the main one. The second one would be like, if you are deficient, if you have like low tea, that’s definitely gonna make a difference.  

Daniel DeBrocke   But then outside of that, if you just have a healthy, normal level, then I don’t know, I would say people who, who don’t have like motivation don’t necessarily have purpose in their lives more than, like motivation, because motivation, everyone is motivated, do something, right.     Like, there’s like a motivational hierarchy that essentially governs everything that we do, if you know, you want to sit down versus standing up, like that’s a decision, you have to make a decision based on something and so you have some sort of intrinsic motivation to do that.  

Daniel DeBrocke   But if you say that, like if someone says they lack motivation, like, okay, then you just lack some sort of purpose, you know, like, you don’t have any sort of purpose.   That’s, that’s my take on it anyways, because I don’t really buy the whole lack of motivation thing, because, you know, like, Are you motivated to show up at work every day?  

Daniel DeBrocke   No, but you do it, you know, Are you motivated to go and pick your kids up at night, or like, or get up at, like, let’s say, three in the morning, if you have a newborn, and they’re crying, and you’re putting, like, you’re not pumped about that, you just shut the fuck up.    And you do it, because that’s what you have to do. And so it’s like, but your motivation to do that is obviously greater than your motivation to neglect your child. But it’s because there’s a bigger purpose there.  

Daniel DeBrocke   And so I think, one, a lot of the times when people discuss motivation, they don’t actually understand what motivation is, because it’s a fairly expansive topic. But if someone lacks motivation, and I would just kind of say, the lack of direction, purpose and clarity in their life.  

Steve Washuta: That’s a great point. Yeah, people will say, I don’t have the motivation to go to the gym. It’s like, Well, do you not have the motivation?   Or are you just low energy and you choose to do something else, because you have low energy. And the thing I tried to do explain to clients and I’m sure you would echo the sentiment is, the more you lift, the more you have energy to lift.  

Steve Washuta:  The further like, there’s this aha moment you get to where the first weeks or months that you go into this. It’s difficult.     It is really difficult, like anything else, like when you just start reading, like, if you haven’t read in a long time, the first time you pick up a book, it’s tough. You’re like, I gotta get through this whole book.  

Steve Washuta   And then you get through one or two books and you’re like, Oh, this is actually easy. And you gain that momentum.  So it’s it is it is that conversation with the client to say, I know you don’t think you have this energy, but we have to push through for the first three weeks and then you will gain this energy. Yeah, and  

Daniel DeBrocke   it’s funny because like, somewhere along the way, I don’t think you ever I don’t think you realize when that shift happens, but somewhere along the way.    you do have one of those moments where you just kind of like huh, I’ve been doing this for a long time, and I don’t really like eating bad food anymore. Not because I don’t like the taste, but when I do I just feel shame.  

Daniel DeBrocke   Do I feel inflamed? I feel like my face and joints puff up. Don’t feel good for my training. Like, I just would actually rather eat good healthy food, where I would actually rather go and do my conditioning and do my training. So I don’t even feel like dogs.      Like you just, you just got to know that. And so it’s not even like, oh, I don’t want to it’s like, Man, if I feel this way now, I feel worse tomorrow. So I gotta, I gotta go when you know.  

Daniel DeBrocke   And it just, yeah, it’s funny, because sometimes it’s like, you cross that threshold, but then you don’t realize it till several weeks or months later, even when you just kind of have one of those moments.    And you’re like, huh, I don’t remember. Like, I remember when I used to really struggle when I was at restaurants. Now I don’t have cravings or whatever it might be for that particular individual. So it’s kind of a cool process, that’s for sure.  

Steve Washuta: Yeah, and that’s why, you know, sort of leading into that is maybe a little bit offshoot of that. I’m not necessarily against people using things like ozempic.    I don’t, there’s a lot of weird studies on it now with the sort of the gastroparesis and things of that nature, but I shouldn’t single I was using things that give them a little bit of a catalyst to get moving, if that’s what they think it’s like, Oh, hey, I,  

Steve Washuta: I want to go to GNC and by this pre workout and this protein, because I believe that I’m going to work out because of this.     If this is the catalyst that gets you going for the first three or four weeks fine, we should have a plan to say you’re going to be on this pre workout for the rest of your life.  

Steve Washuta   But But ultimately, catalysts are good sometimes to get people ignited. So I, again, I shouldn’t say ozempic, specifically, because there are a lot of health issues surrounding that.     But just just a catalyst, whether that is the TRT, or something else that gets you that initial burst to get that momentum to skip past that aha moment. I’m totally all for it.  

Daniel DeBrocke   Yeah, sure. Why not? I mean, like, all these things are just kind of levers right? So  

Steve Washuta: lastly, here, I want you to finish with your, I guess you would say, your your fuckup mentality about posting whatever you want. People in health and fitness industry find that difficult. They try to find their voice on social media, they hide some things, maybe they try to act like a different character, you seem to be pretty authentic and just say fuck it.

Steve Washuta  I’m gonna say whatever I want. Did that take a while for you to do that? Do you find that it’s actually more beneficial that you just are yourself? Or is this just who you are, and that you couldn’t see it any other way?

Daniel DeBrocke  often think about that. I mean, I’ve always been that way, in that I just kind of speak my mind.And I think that’s just my family in general, are very much like that. I think that’s just a cultural difference sometimes, and like, Canadians and Americans and, versus like other cultures. I’ve always been like that in, in, in real life.

Daniel DeBrocke  And I don’t think that I was always like that on social media. Because I guess when I was on social media, I like when I first got on social media, I was very late to all that stuff. Like I had my first cell phone when I was like, 22, or 23, you know, so I was very late to the game. And so when I first started posting content, looking back now, I think what I was trying to do was I was trying to sound smart.

Daniel DeBrocke  You know, so I’d see guys like Greg and Mike and sorry, Greg knuckles. And Mike is Rotel. And like, you know, just Eric Helms and all these really smart guys who are posting something, wow, that’s really cool. And I’m a fairly cerebral person.

Daniel DeBrocke  And so that’s what I enjoy. And so I just assumed that, you know, I should start doing that, too. And so I kind of tried to model them.   And people would always tell me that I could content but I was always, like, so careful about how I worded things. And then eventually, I was just like, Man, this is not me.   You know, like, this is not how I’d actually respond in real life. Like, the content that I was posting was accurate, and that that’s true, you know, but like, I don’t know.

Daniel DeBrocke  And so I don’t exactly know what that was, but I was just like, You know what, fuck it, like, I’m just gonna be who I actually am. And then I just started doing that.  And, yeah, I take heat for it every now and then. But like, I don’t know, it’s like, Who gives a shit?Like, what, where are you? Why am I going to justify my existence or my beliefs to someone who I don’t even know.

Daniel DeBrocke  You know? Like, I have a lot of controversial perspectives, and it’s like, that’s okay. You know, but then I go back to Serbia and like, none of what I’m saying is controversial ones like Yeah, no shit, you know, so it’s like, I don’t know.  It’s just it’s for me. I don’t believe that people can get canceled. Like, I don’t believe that. That’s a thing. It’s like, yeah, okay, you can take me on social media. So fucking what? You know what I mean? Go cancel my account.

Daniel DeBrocke  I don’t give a shit. Do you think I’m gonna sacrifice my integrity and like who I am to keep Instagram? Like, that’s like, if that’s where someone’s priorities is, then they can go sock themselves, because I don’t really want to fuck with people like that, to be honest.

Steve Washuta: I think more people rather than getting canceled off of like an Instagram thing or worried about people, maybe they’re friends with or they’re sort of like diagonally connected to who disagree with them, and they don’t want to lose them as friends.  But both in the real world and on social media, but I do think like you said, eventually, your thoughts or your thoughts and you’re not going to sort of curate this fake personality, have this internet figure who has your picture?

Steve Washuta: That is you, those are your thoughts, that’s who you are. And the sooner you kind of give into that, the more authentic audience you’re gonna build anyway, I believe,

Daniel DeBrocke  yeah. And here’s what I would say to people who are worried about losing, it’s like, if, if you’re, if you’re worried about pissing someone off that, you know, or whatever.  then it’s like, then why are you friends with them? Like, that makes that makes you a liar, that makes you disingenuous. Now, here’s the thing, I want to be real clear about this.

Daniel DeBrocke  If you have business, run your business. You know, I’m not telling people that if they have a business, they have to also speak on political issues and everything like that, because I kind of stopped doing a lot of this stuff.   So I was like, I just don’t argue this is my fitness business. I’m going to do that. But I’m okay with talking about stuff that’s controversial.

Daniel DeBrocke  Within the scope of my business, you know, and so that’s, that’s fine. Right? But like, I’m not saying you have to do that. But it’s like   I’m never gonna lie about who I am. You know? And if someone’s worried, they’re like, oh, I don’t want to say this. Because blah, blah, like, my response would be okay. Do you believe that? Yeah.   Okay, well, then why don’t you act like someone who actually has a fucking backbone, and stand by your convictions? If that’s what you believe, then say it don’t fucking pussyfoot around it?

Daniel DeBrocke  Or you’re just a coward. You know, and I honestly can’t stand people like that. And so, you know, because here’s what’s going to happen, you’re going to do that, and those people are going to fuck off.   And then guess what you just found out, you found out that they weren’t actually your friends. Good, good. You don’t want those people in your life? At least I don’t. And then what’s going to happen?

Daniel DeBrocke  You’re gonna start attracting people who actually share the same values as you. And it’s like, Isn’t isn’t that much better? Isn’t it better to not have to fake and be someone else? Isn’t it better just actually be able to express who you genuinely are. And be like, Hey, this  is who I am.   I don’t need you to accept me. Like, I know who I am. If you don’t like it, that’s okay. Like, I like you.

Daniel DeBrocke  You’re there’s plenty of people who don’t like me anymore. And I still have no problem with them. Because it’s like, okay, they don’t like me, that’s fine. I have no problem with them  Right? But like, at the same time, I know who I am. I’m not apologizing for who I am. And it’s like, this isn’t. This isn’t some sort of Spiel where it’s like, oh, you can just be a dickhead to everyone.

Daniel DeBrocke  And that’s just who I am. It’s like, no, don’t be a piece of shit. But like, if someone disagrees with me, or if they don’t like me, for whatever reason, it’s like, that’s okay.   I don’t need people to like me, I don’t need anyone to like, like, I’ve got three people that I know that I’m really, really close with. I’ve got my best friend, I’ve got my, my sister, I’ve got my girlfriend, that is all that I need.

Daniel DeBrocke  You know, I don’t need a million people to like me. You know, if I know that I’m doing right by them. And when I get married, and when I have my kids, if I’m doing right by my families, and remember the people.   I care about the people who genuinely support me, that’s all I care about. I don’t care about what some fucking stranger on the internet thinks of me, especially if like, they don’t have what I want.

Daniel DeBrocke  You know, like, I’ll look at someone and they’re criticizing me. And I’m like, Okay, you look like crap. You’re working a construction job. I don’t like construction. Not there’s nothing wrong with construction.  But I wouldn’t want to do that. You’re not very smart, just based on your argument here. Like, why? Why would I listen to you, I would never trade positions with you, and your mindset and your mentality and your ability to think and execute.   got you into that position. So why would I trust anything coming out of your mouth, because that’s your outcome.  I don’t want that outcome, my outcome is way better. So and

Steve Washuta: the people and the people who care about you, as you mentioned before, in your first example, earlier on, when you had posted something about a study on your Facebook, we’ll reach out to you with a genuine hand to say, Hey, I’d like to talk more about this with you. I disagree with you, or I can show you something, they won’t attack you. So if people are attacking you, they’re not your friends, because your real friends will have a real conversation with you about the thing that disagree.

Daniel DeBrocke  100% and like for me, I always try to be pretty gracious generally, until someone starts being a dick to me, and I’m like, alright, well fuck you then, you know, but like, because I had so many people. \  You know, like, like I’d mentioned earlier right about Greg reached out to me just via, like, private message. Like that was really cool. And that’s not something that I’ve forgotten, because I was like, You know what, he was a big name even back then.

Daniel DeBrocke  And he didn’t have to do that. He could have just shredded me up in the comments, but he didn’t. I was like, that’s a good dude. You You know, and so I try and do the same thing to other people and just not be a dick.  But like, yeah, it’s it’s like why am I gonna care about what some, some guy who can’t handle his emotions on social media thinks about whether you should do 15 sets or 20 sets of venture?

Daniel DeBrocke  It’s just like, Dude, I don’t care. Like, if you disagree, then disagree. I just don’t care. You know? So,

Steve Washuta: Daniel, this has been fun and great information, I promise I will have you on in the future to talk about more concrete stuff, more specifically powerlifting stuff instead of this sort of philosophical, cultural, health and fitness conversations.   but let my listeners know where they can best reach you individually if they want to reach out to you and obviously your socials where they can find you.

Daniel DeBrocke  Yeah, so again, thanks for having me on. Man, I appreciate it. I hope your audience got something out of it. I’m not necessarily the best guy to kind of wax poetically about things.  So sorry for all the cursing, and sorry, if a lot of the stuff that I said didn’t make a whole lot of sense. But yeah, that’s not exactly my area of expertise.

Daniel DeBrocke  But I appreciate you having me on anyways. And I always enjoy the chat, and it’s great to connect again. So I’m most active on Instagram, I have other social media, but really, Instagram is the only one that I’m able to use right now because I’m just so busy with work.  So Instagram is going to be the best place to reach me. It’s Daniel underscore to Brock. And then I have a YouTube channel as well.

Daniel DeBrocke  Got a couple 100 videos on there. And I’m gonna be posting more lectures on there the next little bit I hired a video guy recently and according budget lecture. That’s also coming up there.  So those are two places you can get a lot of content but the place to actually reach me is just gonna be Instagram.

Steve Washuta:   I’ll put all the links in the description. He’s a great follow. Make sure you do it. My guest today has been Daniel de Brock. Thank you for joining us really good podcast to shoot

Steve Washuta: Thanks for joining us on the Trulyfit podcast. Please subscribe, rate, and review on your listening platform. Feel free to email us as we’d love to hear from you.

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