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Guest: Marc Morris

Release Date: 10/10/2022

Welcome to Trulyfit the online fitness marketplace connecting pros and clients through unique fitness business software.

Steve Washuta:  Welcome to Trulyfit. Welcome to the Trulyfit podcast where we interview experts in fitness and health to expand our wisdom and wealth. I am your host, Steve Washuta, co founder of Trulyfit and author of Fitness business 101.

On today’s episode, I speak with Dr. Mark Morris. This is his second appearance on the Trulyfit podcast. For those of you who don’t know, Dr. Mark, he has his doctorate in nutrition.

He is a Canadian, which is not surprising given that it seems like one in five of our guests are Canadian. What he does now really is work with nutrition coaches and health coaches and fitness professionals and help them I would call it streamline their coaching process, help them get more clients and help them understand how to get their clients to their goals successfully through proper scientific principles, but also how to work with clients from a client relations standpoint and a marketing standpoint.

Mark has such a thorough process in a deep understanding of all the different components of wearing the sales hat of wearing the science hat of wearing the client relations, strategist hat. And we got into what I would call, hence the name of the episode a really honest client conversation.

There are a lot of things that people don’t like to talk about. In both the nutrition world and the personal training fitness world. Sometimes you don’t always get clients to their goals. Sometimes it’s really hard to get clients.

Sometimes you feel salesy in that process and you don’t want to do it. What do you really need to do to get clients? Should you build fast should you build slow, we really go down the full spectrum of honest conversations, both from Mark’s perspective and my perspective, on struggles that both nutrition coaches and personal trainers have in building their business.

We talk about reaching out to family members, should you do that? How do you do that reaching out to former clients of yours? If you feel like that relationship is broken at some point? How do you go about that? Are people doing this? Is this a strategy that you can use to help grow your business? It was a great conversation at the end, I got two or three or four questions that are going to be leading into the next episode.

So next episode with Vinnie Russo, who is a bodybuilding Pro and IFBB Pro, and an also nutrition professional has his master’s in nutrition. And I asked him what I consider five frustrating client questions mostly surrounding nutrition, some surrounding fitness and I take some of those questions, give you a preview and I asked them to mark how do you respond not to us not to poor fitness professionals and health professionals who know?

But how do you respond to clients who ask questions like, Is sugar bad for me? Do I need to cut out all carbohydrates? Can I gain 10 pounds of muscle and lose 15 pounds of body fat at the same time these questions that clients are always coming to us and asking. And we have to really understand that it’s it’s not okay for us to poopoo these questions and roll our eyes at clients.

We have to give them the green light to ask whatever questions they want to at any time and tell them yes, this is a great question or why are you asking this exactly? What do you think about this and then explain it from our perspectives? What’s important, what’s not important? And Mark, you have some great insights and answers to give to your clients potentially when they ask these questions.

It was a fantastic conversation mark is not supposed to play favorites, but probably one of my if not my favorite guest to speak to. With no further ado, here is Dr. Mark. Mark, round two here. Thank you so much for joining the Trulyfit podcast again. For the audience members who didn’t get to hear you on round one. Why don’t you give a quick, brief background on who you are and what it is that you do in the health fitness and nutrition industry.

Marc Morris: Steve, thanks for having me back on. I’m really excited to chat. I know I think we just we just got into it last time. And we must have talked for like an hour and a half back and forth about like every which way nutrition, fitness, how to market this stuff and all that. So I’m excited to be on again. My name is Dr. Mark Morris, PhD in human nutrition. I’ve been in the training powerlifting nutrition space since about 2008.

Working with clients since 2010, I kind of laugh at the pandemic and people going online because I’ve been sitting in front of a computer listening or talking to anyone to listen about nutrition and fitness stuff for the last decade and just really passionate about sharing what I know not only to individuals that want to improve their health, but also coaches looking to include nutrition coaching into their practice, which is a relatively new field, as well as you know, people that just want full on a nutrition coach and help others with their passion. So that’s who I am.

Steve Washuta: Tell us a little bit about your program. Is it a program that you let’s say graduate from there are it’s a certain, like, number of weeks that they go through your course, is it they have to pass particular tests to go through it? How does how does your course run from that perspective?

Marc Morris: Yeah, so at the end of our 12 week program, you’d be a certified online nutrition coach and the main, I guess, checkmark or like test is a practicum at the end of working with With an actual client, under my supervision, going through the steps of everything that we built out over the 12 weeks in terms of, we answered just about every question in terms of, you know, what questions to ask the beginning in the intake process and get people interested and, and, you know, how do I set them up and assess what’s holding them back from their goals?

And, you know, what do I need to prescribe for them to get results? And how do I coach them on a week to week basis? How do I graduate them? How do I have those tough conversations when things aren’t going so well, but also how do I keep people engaged, when things are going well, and then how to pull social media content from this stuff, so you can continue to grow your business. And we do that all over 90 days. And at the end, it all kind of wraps up with working with an actual client for the last four weeks.

Steve Washuta: Yeah, it’s fantastic. Because it’s such a full spectrum that you hit in every area of the business model. And that’s why you know, that I harp on like, How I hate the click funnel bros, and people who are always like, I can get you 10 clients, I can get you 20 clients, I can get you 30 clients, it’s like, okay, well, then I’m going to lose 25 of those 30 clients, because I don’t know what to do with them.

So like, you want to sort of grow commensurate with your skill set. I don’t want 30 clients, day one, because I’m not gonna be able to help their declines. Day one, I’m going to be seeing too many different things.

But it seems like your program says, Hey, listen, we’re going to find ways to get your clients, we’re going to get unique, we’re going to be involved in the social media landscape, and the hip and be cool and use some sales and marketing techniques. But I’m also going to teach you how to get clients to their goals. So you can spread your skills sort of word of mouth also,

Marc Morris:  completely completely, I think. And again, I think this AI programs came from spending 10 years in university and then realizing I still don’t really know how to apply this stuff and just accumulating knowledge for the sake of doing it then being like, oh, like, what do I do now? And I know people have a really similar experience, be it, you know, an actual degree or a certification, learning things for the sake of learning them and feeling like yeah, I learned a lot. But at the same time, I really don’t know how to apply it.

So we try to step by step, take what’s important and take action on it. And we kind of laugh at the you know, the click funnel bros, because they kind of are a bit off putting and rub us the wrong way. But there is something to be said about taking action and taking the steps and doing that kind of stuff. We also just want to back it up with Okay, we got some interests, we got people curious, we even got people signed up through the right marketing and sales strategies. What do we do now to provide a good service? So we can’t disregard that entirely either.

Steve Washuta: No, totally. And I actually really like the people who say, Hey, listen, if you’re making x amount of dollars, now, if you already have a skill set, if you’re doing it, I have a way to help you grow. Because chances are you’re doing something right, you’re helping people, you just don’t know how to get to the next step, I get that.

But it’s where the beginners come in, it’s when the people are fresh out of a Dr. Mark, you know, certification or fresh out of a National Academy of Sports Medicine, certification, who don’t really have the skill set yet to help people. Of course, you’re never going to be perfect, right? We have to start somewhere.

But it’s about starting and growing in the right manner, and not trying to say the only goal is I need 50 clients right away, I need to make a lot of money. If your goal isn’t to help people, then you’re going to fail it ultimately, you have to be doing a service for your clients.

Marc Morris: Yeah, I think what the probably, I completely agree, I think what the these marketing brochures probably do well is that they do sell you on the possibility. I just think it can end there. Right? I think what gets people interested in actually taking their passion and helping more people is the fact that they can make money doing this. And they can make a career out of it and that type of thing. And that is the dream.

But it just got to be followed up with something. It’s also it’s a lot like when I talk about nutrition based stuff, we focus so much on fat loss and aesthetics and looking a certain way. Because in a lot of cases, that’s what people want and opens the door to a bunch of different possibility, right? Like maybe you start this journey because of the way you want to look from an aspirational sense. But you you continue on it, because hey, this makes me feel better.

I’m taking care of my overall health, right? So I think if you can start to view things a little bit differently in terms of now I’m wearing my marketing hat now wearing my coaching hat and start to distinguish what you need to say and when and when it’s appropriate to when is going to be the most effective. I think that is where you start to really harness the power of your passion as well as building a business doing this stuff.

Steve Washuta:  Yeah, you’re right. And we talked I talked about this before on here, sometimes vanity, gets them through the door, right? That’s that’s you sort of reel them in with vanity and once you get them to the door you go hey, listen, there’s a lot more to than you just having big biceps like I’m worried about your overall long term health and wellness. So we have to add in X y&z exercises in order to make sure you’re there and that’s fine.

That’s that’s all good and well and I hope that’s what people do. But I think whether for good or for, for better for worse, getting clients as a pain point. So people use that to lure people in and say I can get you clients because it is the number one biggest problem in the industry for all professionals is how do I get clients so what did you see Mark? What are you You see from your nutrition professionals, like the top two or three reasons why they struggle getting clients, is it that they’re doing something wrong? Or is it that they’re maybe not taking action at all?

Marc Morris: I think the biggest one of the biggest things is people. They talk about the things that are important to them, and not necessarily what’s important to their, their client, the people they’re trying to attract. So if you can kind of think about, let me put myself in their shoes for a second and think about what they’re struggling with what they want, and what they need to hear to open this door, you will start to attract people that want your services, not others in your position, that would be probably the biggest thing.

And the reason why I see this in terms of the landscape of different coaches, I work with beginners, intermediates, people with established businesses, people that might have got to where they were, in spite of what they’ve done, which is also a thing that like happens quite often. And we see it even more and more in the evidence based world. Because first of all, evidence based training and nutrition has done so much to give us a sense of why people get results and what’s important and what’s not.

But at times, it’s probably been tough from a marketing perspective, because people are getting further and further away from what people actually need and want to hear. Right. And I think the best of both worlds is opening that door with some marketing based stuff and then fulfilling on the science based strategies that are going to get them results. But I think the biggest thing that’s holding people back especially coaches with a more established education background is that they they don’t understand what their clients want, which is different.

We talk about toning, we talk about, you know, motivation, your clients think that they want to tone and want to look a certain way. And they feel like a lot of times what’s holding them back is if they have no motivation. And if you try to convince them that you don’t actually need motivation, you’ve already lost them.

Steve Washuta: Interesting. Yeah. And you’re right, I think we look at it from our perspective. And some of us who have been training and working out personal trainers, let’s say every day, we’re looking at things totally differently. We enjoy exercise, too, right? We look forward to it. I talk about this all the time I wake up in the morning, I didn’t get to work out today, if I would have run in the morning, like I plan to things got in the way, I would have felt better now.

Right? So I was I’m angry that I couldn’t work out or vice versa, you have clients who who are dreading it, who hate exercising. And same thing in nutrition industry, you have people like Mark at, he can’t wait to eat this proper meal that he planned for himself.

And he went to the grocery store on Sunday and prepared this great meal where you have somebody else on the other end of the spectrum, who’s dreading having to eat that salad because because they want to eat the burger. And we have to put ourselves back into that place and say, they haven’t got past that point where this is enjoyable yet, and I have to explain that to them. That it

Marc Morris: becomes a joy. I actually enjoy eating vegetables. I actually if I go a weekend without eating 30 grams of fiber. I feel like a disaster. I don’t know if you’re using example, Steve, but am I talking to like cranky? Steve today? Or did you actually you did train this morning?

Steve Washuta: No, you’re talking to cranky Steve today? Yeah. So Steve was planning on running this morning. And a client was a half hour late to an appointment. And Steve didn’t get his run in. So Steve is gonna be a little bit cranky.

Marc Morris: That’s fine. It’s still it’s pretty good. Steve still all things? Yeah. I’m not like Yeah. Like this, the I think that’s the biggest thing is that, yeah, I enjoy exercise. I like doing these things I would be doing this stuff with or without a business or any of that stuff I truly enjoy. And the people that we’re trying to help and reach aren’t the same way. And it’s finding ways by actively listening and exploring how they feel and what they want to accomplish, where we can most effectively reach them.

And I think that is overlooked time and time again, is that these people that are have a hard time acquiring clients, be it now they’re on their own, or they’re doing their own thing. It’s different, like if you’re in a corporate big box gym environment where maybe leads come to you and you got to be really good salesperson. That’s different, but the people around you in this sense to attract them using social media, we just got to get a better sense of what they want and what they want to accomplish.

Steve Washuta: Yeah, I find that people also don’t like to be salesy. I’m one of them. And I know that you talk a little bit about this, like how to get around that I feel that you’re the one thing that I say to young personal trainers who say I’m being salesy, is someone’s coming to you or wants to come to you for you to solve a problem for them. You’re not necessarily a salesman, you’re a fixer, you’re you’re trying to fix this problem, you’re just giving a little bit of information, letting them know that you can fix their problem.

Marc Morris: You got to you’re bang on you got to shift that mindset from selling to help him and you’re no longer like if you don’t talk about how you can help them in be it’s like a sales letter or whatever, they’re never gonna have an opportunity to work with you. And chances are, their lives won’t improve.

I don’t know, it’s sometimes it’s just like tricks to think about what do I need to do to take these steps to become a little bit more salesy, whatever it is to get that feedback loop that you know, this is working and this is helpful, and I’m going to help more people because if people don’t know about me I’m never going to be able to help people, right? I think that is what’s getting in the way of a lot of personal trainers and nutrition coaches helping more people is that no one wants to be the best fitness professional that no one knows about.

And to do that, like you need to focus more on these marketing skills, which is communicating how you help, and the sales skills, which is taking people from interested and turning them into paying clients so that you can truly help them in the best way possible. I’ve never had anyone ever come to me and say, Mark, you posted that recipe and it completely changed my life.

Like no, it happens through them working with me for three to six, nine months, where we truly can remove the barriers for what’s you know, getting in the way of their health. And only the only way I can do that is is selling them into something that’s going to help them do that. Yeah, it’s

Steve Washuta: essentially a job application. That’s all you’re doing. Right? In a way you can rephrase it like I’m just I’m sending in my resume. And this is my resume. This is how I can help you and you don’t see your resume as salesy. You see, your resume is describing who you are, what you can potentially be for the company. That’s all it is. It’s just your, your marketing pitch is your resume for individual potential customers

Marc Morris: completely. And I think it’s just an opportunity, it’s just an opportunity to talk about how we help and what we do. I also, I don’t know, I come from a place where I did not like talking about myself, I did not like selling anything, I think I like the outcome of selling,

but the process of it was really, really daunting in terms of like, how do I go through it or that I think one of the things that I I’ve done to overcome it is that I really got to trick myself into thinking if I don’t do this, someone else, much worse than me, with less education, less passion, much less equipped to help this person is going to do it. So why wouldn’t it be me

Steve Washuta: to share? Yeah, and I mean, that’s not really a trick, you’re not lying, because that is the case, more likely than not somebody else who might have a slightly better sales pitch, but less actionable skills to help the client is going to reel them in, which then leads the client down this never-ending cycle of then finding somebody else who may also have really good sales, but can actually help them and you could have got them two months earlier and had them on the right

Marc Morris:  path completely. And I think you owe it to them to be able to show up in the best way possible and improve what you’re doing as a professional so that you can help more people.

Steve Washuta:  So I’ve moved a bunch of times, since I’ve started personal training, I’ve been personal training, probably 11 years now. And I’ve had to move just life takes you in different directions. Before the virtual training thing got big, you would just lose your clients. Typically, it’s like, well, I will give you off to these other random trainers who are here who I trust, and then you move on and try to build your business again.

Now we have virtual training, that’s a little bit different. And, you know, I had clients who had come back to me retroactively after I had moved, let’s say even to locations 567 years later, just shot me an email and said things like, Hey, I was working with a personal trainer didn’t really enjoy him or her. I was wondering if you had some time, maybe we can do this virtually. I had never even thought to reach out to those clients. I’ve never thought like, oh, yeah, I used to work with them, like maybe they would still want to work with me.

My initial thought was, you know, if I’m online, I’m only maybe 80% of who I am. I can’t give 100% of what I would normally did in a virtual personal training session. I don’t have the equipment, I can’t see them upfront, I can’t see them in a 360 view. So why would I want to do that. But just like what we’re talking about, now, it’s not up to me, it’s up to them.

If they feel more comfortable working with me virtually, then working with someone else, well, then that’s what they want. And I feel like and this is what this leads into a question. It’s not just me ranting here, that people do struggle to look back and say, Who have I worked with in the past?

Maybe we had some weird break in the chain because I moved or they moved or they were having a tough time in life where there was a financial thing going on. And they just don’t reach out to those people. Why is that?

Marc Morris: Such a good, really good insight and good question. And I think there’s two things here. Number one, I think the one lesson is that we can’t assume what people want. I think when we do that, we just we shoot ourselves in the foot almost immediately be it like another thing we can talk about industry faux pas and stuff.

But I like I talk probably more about this on the back end of my coaching process and not as publicly as I should. But there’s, there’s I have clients that pay me monthly that don’t check in that don’t like they don’t follow up. And yeah, I think industry wise, if I was to listen to everyone else, they’d say, you can’t take their money.

They’re not you’re not using their service. They’re not doing that kind of stuff. It’s like well, first of all, I have no idea where this person is coming from maybe them paying me is their attempts to improve their health. It is what it is. If it’s not me, someone else is going to take their money and like it’s a thing. It’s a thing and I think we got to think about like, what like, I can’t assume why this person isn’t do So I’m going to reach out, I’m going to talk to them, I’m going to cross, you know, you know my T’s and dotting my eyes and make sure that like, if there’s an opportunity for me to help them in some capacity, I will.

But in other senses, it’s like, they’re going to do things the way that they need to do them. And it’s not up to me to decide when it’s time for them to finish, when it’s time, if they’re being a bad client, for whatever reason, that’s a different story. But we can’t assume why people are doing things. And I think that’s the biggest thing is that, you know, we got to get drilled out into our, into our minds.

The next thing is that if we think about from a business perspective, anyone watches like, Shark Tank, I’m in Canada, we have Dragon’s Den. If you think about business, and the cost of doing business, the cost of acquiring a new customer is always going to be one of the most expensive things in your business, both from financially and an energy perspective, right? The cost of acquisition of a customer is really, really tough, because you got to get in front of new people, you got to teach them about what you do, and why you’re the person that will help them and work them all the way up this awareness ladder.

So they see you as the solution. That’s an expensive, time consuming process that takes a lot of energy. When you have someone that already trust you, you’ve already built in all of that through time, there’s people that I’ve worked with Steve in the past that already know, Steve as the solution for their, you know, their training problems where they want to go this, you know, the problems that they want to solve, they already knew that person and for whatever reason, be it circumstance, or whatever it is, they stopped working with you.

But they still in their minds, if that wasn’t the case would be working with, you would still be benefiting from that service. We just need to remind them of that. And in the past, you’re like, Oh, well, I didn’t have online potential or an opportunity there. And I couldn’t do it. But now you do. And we can reach out to those people, because we’ve already baked in all of that trust all of that authority, and they’re going to be willing to work with us, because they’ve already done it. They know how that experience. So that’s always an easier process than finding brand new people.

Steve Washuta: Yeah, so many great points there to hit on. And I’m gonna go into a little bit different direction and come back to what you just said. But the first thing I thought of too is, you know, with a program like yours, creating awareness also works sort of like horizontally meaning people underneath mark, also get his brand awareness, which is really great.

So sometimes partnering with other people, or being underneath the guise of something else helps build that awareness, right. So it could could be a certification could be whatever your learning is, right? If I have a degree from Yale, I’m automatically that awareness level, sort of that trust level is higher, because I have that individual thing. But you know, that like we just talked about also, you need to still build up personable connection, they still need to know who you are.

And if you’ve already done that hard client acquisition awareness, both financially and from your energy and efforts on the front end, why do you want to pass that up? If you’re basically, if you’re talking one to 101, being you put in no effort 100, meaning you’re putting everything in, you have all these like clients sitting around in your emails, who you already are at, like 70, or 80%. With, you just got to feel that extra 20.

It’s so much easier than going out and getting new clients, but people don’t want to do it. And people are afraid I’ve had a lot of clients also, like you said, who came to me once a week for an hour. They like shit, they were drinking, they weren’t doing the right things. But guess what, they only want to work out once a week for an hour. Maybe that’s what their finances are. Maybe that makes them feel good in this moment. If it’s not me, it’s somebody else.

So yes. Are you losing? Are you your goal to lose weight? There? No, it’s not. But I’m not your mother, either, right? I’m not your husband or wife. I’m just your one hour week personal trainer. And for that hour, I am providing my high level, energy and effort and my sort of crystallized knowledge over time, and I’m helping you do whatever you have to do. And it’s going to be better in my opinion than somebody else’s one hour. And that’s, that’s all we can do. We can’t solve everybody’s problems. We need to make a living

Marc Morris: completely, completely. Yeah, absolutely. And I think if you don’t, if you don’t take that step and treat it as is like you’re never gonna like who knows where that could go as well as like that may be all they need and all they want and all that is there like we can’t, we can’t put what we want onto people so much that it like turns them away from the process and our business will suffer because of it.

Do you want to get you want to get strategic around existing people like people you’ve worked with in the past, I have something that I’ve been using lately to great success. It’s called, you don’t want to show up to a party empty handed, right? You don’t want to just show up to as an invited guest. With nothing to offer someone when you have someone you’ve already worked with you baked in all this stress, they’re probably going to be willing to work with you in the past number one, you just need to be present and be top of mind.

So reach out to them, but just don’t reach out to them thinking like Hey, I thought maybe you’d want to go like get back on personal training, you know, you know, let’s do it. That’s not going to work. What you want to do is number one Remember a little bit about them personally, remember a little bit about what they were trying to accomplish, because you can know everything about their entire family, but the most important thing to them.

And your relationship was that thing that they wanted to accomplish the result is super, super specific. So take notes, when you work with clients have records, that kind of thing, because it’s like, literally, it’s your leverage, it’s your ammo. And when you reach out to them, exchange pleasantries, but also give them something I was Steve, I was just thinking about our time together.

And I know you wanted to gain some muscle, and we did such a good job of, you know, accomplishing that, but you wanted to push things even further, I just created a brand new like training template that, you know, based on your experience and our time working together, I know it’d be really, really helpful for you.

So I just wanted to pass it along, like hope all as well. Like, you could even leave it there, talk about you know, like, just reengage them in a conversation, give them something, and they will reach back out to you and be like, you know, things got kind of off track here. I would like tell me a little bit more about what you’re up to, and maybe how you could help me like that will happen nine out of 10 times. But you don’t want to just reach out randomly without something to offer them without being personal and without something to give is the biggest thing.

Steve Washuta: Yeah, that’s great information. I think people too, are hesitant to talk with other professionals like you and I are talking about, I’m just going to turn that client drop off, like client drop off happens. People just go ghost, whether it’s finances, or they know deep inside, that they’re not completing the program.

So they feel embarrassed about maybe not making progress or not blaming you, they feel embarrassed, right. So there’s a host of reasons we can assume like Mark said that these clients dropped off. So it’s always good to extend that olive branch and say, Hey, Tom, I remember your goal was to get from 185, down to 170. But you’d sprained your ankle.

And we couldn’t really get there at the time, because you weren’t able to do any sort of cardio because of the ankle issue. Just wondering how the ankle is how the wife is, by the way on virtual training.

So if you’d ever like to start back up, I can send you my schedule football as well, you’re going to typically get these people and I think people are hesitant to do it, maybe on both sides, I really feel like it’s a psychology thing where you blame yourself for the loss of the client. So you push it out of your head, I don’t want to think about it, I fucked up.

And they think that they screwed the relationship up because they weren’t keeping up with their end of the bargain. And, and you both just part ways wherein no, this is just how it goes, there’s an ebb and flow, he tried to quit cigarettes, you try to get on a really good diet, you’re gonna fail, you’re going to you’re going to take some downturns and then you got to get back on the horse, as I say,

Marc Morris: completely. I think in the end, I this is so good. And such a good conversation, I think it’s important to have openly is that number one, nine times out of 10. It has nothing to do with you. It’s it’s financial, it’s they’re not in the right place to be able to do on the things that they need to do. And I think good coaching, as opposed to training, good coaching will find a way to make that work.

But that’s probably a conversation for a different time. But it’s usually never about you. It really, really isn’t. I think there’s also this kind of industry myth that when you work with someone over a set period of time, and you release them into the wild, they should be set for life, you’ve given them everything that they need to know, they know absolutely everything they need to do. They’re in this good place. Maybe that’s a bit more pervasive and nutrition than it is training.

But you’ve completely set them up for success for the rest of their life. And they should be able to execute on that forever. We need to take a step back. And remember the reason why 90% of the reason why this stuff works is accountability and expert guidance. Like it’s it’s not the education and the habits is the fact that someone signs up to work with you. And there’s some element of you being a taskmaster involved in it.

There absolutely is and we can’t get around that. It’s like, you know, you put a pot on the stove, and it boils when you put it under heat, if you take it off the heat, it doesn’t continue to boil, it stops, there’s like, you know, there’s that element of that when we work with someone. So with that being said, there’s going to be you can’t fix people forever, and people are willing and sometimes will come back to you.

And that doesn’t mean that you’ve failed them. It just means that maybe there’s a new goal to go after, maybe their situations changed. And maybe they just need accountability and guidance. I’ve had people work with me for like seven years straight. We don’t focus on much different, but they just appreciate having someone to talk to someone to set them like on the right path, someone to hold them accountable to what they need to be doing.

And it works. And that is one of the biggest reasons why this stuff works is that yes, there’s the accountability piece. And you don’t need to think about you don’t have to have all the way to the world trying to fix someone and set them on their way and think that they’re fixed and then it’s all going to be done. It doesn’t work that way.

Steve Washuta: I’ll add a third interconnected piece. A mutual friend of ours who was just on the podcast, Daniel de Brock, was talking about how coaching also there’s a layer of psychology wherein if you trust the coach as a person, you’re way more likely to reach your goals regardless of the science but specifically the Because of the psychology, right, so you have this sort of, you know, mind-body connection woo-woo stuff going on where if you do trust the process, you trust your coach, you go through these things, you’re more likely to get to your goals because it’s, it’s sort of that plus, it’s that positive placebo, you’re like, I trust mark, he’s giving me good information, I’m gonna go ahead and do this.

So it’s not it’s, of course, it’s the science, of course, it’s the accountability, but it’s also trusting somebody and having, having that plan in place from from, from the trusted professional that really gets these people, you know, going, and then also what you just talked about, I want to add to less Lastly, here before I throw it back to you, but I had a client who was in the medical field, very high level medical professional was in control of everything, every single day had to oversee a lot of shit. She wanted to come in and turn her brain off.

She didn’t want to think that’s why she paid me she knew what she was doing. She could work out on her own, she enjoyed working out, she just wanted to turn your brain off. She didn’t want to think how many reps that I just do. Should I do legs today? Should I do arms today? She wanted me to point and tell her what to do.

And guess what? Who cares? That’s great. If that’s what she wants, right? Everyone’s working out for different reasons. It’s not my job to tell her Hey, listen, you know what you’re doing? You don’t need me, you’re in great shape. No, if this is what she wants to pay me for, I’m going to allow her to use her money and whatever way she wants to. And it’s a win win for both of us.

Marc Morris: Completely. Yeah, no, that’s a really, really good point. I think we just again, we just can’t assume what people want. And I think that person would continue to go to for a long time for that benefit. That’s really, really only important to them.

That’s the same reason why, like, one of the reasons why CrossFit got so popular is because you went into a workout and you knew you’re going to work out with everyone else, doing the same movements, you didn’t have to think about what you needed to do, you could just literally execute like, obviously tons of pros and cons. But like, that’s why people liked it.

Right? They’d go in, they would do their workout, it would be done. That type of thing. So yeah, it’s like, I think the biggest thing is that we just can’t assume this what people want.

Steve Washuta: Let’s talk a little bit about families. I currently train my older sister, there was a point in which adding to this miscommunication or lack of communication that we’re talking about. She always thought I was too busy to work with her. And I just never thought like, why would I reach out to my family? That’s kind of weird.

And now we work out together, it’s enjoyable, we get to catch up while we’re talking via zoom, and she gets a good workout in and it’s a win win. She works from home. So it just it works out great. I feel like people are hesitant sometimes to reach out to family members or family only want maybe free information, or it’s just it gets to be this like weird, awkward situation, how do you get around that with your clients? And what are some tips maybe that you can give personal trainers or nutrition professionals?

Marc Morris: Well, I do work with a lot of in the online space, again, we talked about kind of like you need to find people and through the social media content that you put out that type of thing, like you’re not gonna have a bunch of leads coming from you. And I think that’s probably a misconception when people go online is that like, they think they’ll just show up online and people will come to them.

And it’ll work out in some capacity it does. But in a lot of times, you need to do the right things to put yourself out there, a lot of the beginners I work with, though, they need to tap into their social network at the beginning, like they don’t have any social credit built up in the training or the nutrition sphere.

So they need to like tap on shoulders put themselves out there and benefit from the people that are already in their social circle that see them as the person that’s going to help them because those people exist, if you watch what you eat, and I’ve lived a healthy lifestyle, there’s already people that are looking to you for guidance and help, you just need to put it out there that you could help them.

The flip side is that family and friends and people, co workers, people, you know, in a personal capacity, it can be tougher, it can be you’re already top of mind of the person that can help them but can be tougher to coach them and train them. Because there is that personal relationship. And I think setting expectations around the beginning is that I know you I love you, we have this personal relationship.

But in order for this to work, we’ve got to put this aside for the next hour or for when we’re doing check ins or for whatever it is in order for this to work. And that means I treat you in the exact same way I would treat any other client and that doesn’t mean that I’m not you know, any less pleasant. And if anything for some of your friends and family it can be I’ll be actually more pleasant. But for in order for this to work, it’s like we got to treat this the exact same way. It’s got to be professional.

I can’t make exceptions. I got to ask the exact same thing of you that it would anyone else and that goes both ways. Is that like we need to treat this seriously and a lot of times that means you pay the exact same that anyone else would pay because those who pay pay attention and you can’t feel like you’re getting any sort of discounts or anything like that I saw like you see those kind of like I don’t know if they’re memes or just like you know, quick quotes where it’s like someone will pay an influencer they have no idea who They are full price.

But small businesses of people in your own community, you don’t want to pay, you’re asking for a discount. It’s like, it couldn’t be any more true. Like, I read that stuff. And I’m like, Ah, like, that’s so obvious. But it’s like, it’s completely true. And it’s crazy how that works. But it’s like, they need to pay full price, you need to treat it in the exact same way. And you need to create that environment that is completely professional in order for it to work. And when you do that, and you set those expectations at the beginning, it works pretty pretty well, like it can it can work.

Steve Washuta: Yeah, that’s great information. I want to comment on two parts of that. The first is, I think, sometimes when people don’t want to who are close in your network. I won’t say family members, but maybe like, second level friends don’t want to pay for your services. There’s a level of like, what’s called shotgun fraud. In German.

That means like, I kind of want to see you fail. From other people around you, if they see you doing maybe kind of well, they’re like, well, we grew up in the same town, and I thought I was going to do this too. And then I didn’t do well. So like, maybe those aren’t always the best people to reach out to like the second level people, right. That’s why they’re not paying you because they’re jealous. And they don’t, they don’t want to see you shine.

But going back to what you said, First, I think it’s such a great point that if you like think about like people in your life who do something else really well, and how much you would love to just like pick their brain about it. Like maybe you just know somebody, you’re like, he’s so good at finances, like, I don’t even know how he drives this car and has this house and like he’s got these three real estate projects, and he has all these things going on.

And he didn’t come from money, like maybe I just like grab coffee with him and feel like and just like sit down, like how do you do this stuff? Or whatever it is, right? Somebody who’s like a great golfer that, you know, you’re like, I just kind of wanted to be like, hey, I’ll buy you dinner, can you just like, show me how to chip properly, let’s just do a 30 minute chipping session. That’s the same thing and fitness like somebody sees you and be like this, this guy’s in really good shape.

And like I and he’s always eating healthy at lunch, like maybe I should just find a way to get into a conversation with him. And maybe they’re not a lifelong client, maybe they just want to meet with you once or twice and pay you to set them up a plan or something and check in with you from time to time. That’s fine. That’s why you have different levels of of like sort of payment processes with people.

And maybe you can talk about that, because I think we weren’t planning on that. But personal trainers don’t typically have that it’s it’s kind of a problem in the industry. They’re trying to figure out it’s such a wild west, like, do I sign a year long contract with a client? Do I do session by session? do I do 10 sessions, but do 10 sessions?

Like, do I charge less I charge more like, like if you started to just go into a crazy direction with this, but do you have like a, like a limitation on what you would offer a client if a client came to you and said, Hey, listen, I’m not willing to work with you for a year mark. But, you know, I’m willing to pay you $500 to meet with me five times and just like audit my diet, would you do them?

Marc Morris: No, I wouldn’t. And the reason is, because and I think a lot of times, people are always gonna want the cheapest option, they’re always gonna want the most inexpensive thing, I think you just need to frame out that conversation around why it’s in their best interest that they do it the exact same way anyone else would, which is I can I can give you those five sessions, Steve, like, we can do that.

And we by all means could set that up. But here’s what I see you need, and here’s the path for you to get your result. And let me show you how we’re going to achieve it. And it go it goes through. In my case, it’s like a one on one coaching. But you’ve got to kind of just like, like, shifted that way. Because you know, in your heart that those five sessions are only going to do so much like by all means, if that’s what they want, we’re not going to convince them otherwise, but I think you just they need to be led, people need to be led and they need to be led to other direction around, this is the best best option and why.

And you can do a good job of that if you also show them why it’s the path to their result. And why maybe that didn’t work in the past because this is a tendency they have just to try to like throw a little bit of money at something to fix it when in reality they need this other thing. So that’s the first thing I would do the other talking to the other point around well, you know I got a golfer a golfer friend that who’s really really good at chipping.

Like maybe the you know, the pro golfer reaches out like to someone I think what we want to do from the beginning is like try to get people just to raise their hands that they’d be interested in the thing that we have. So, you know, on social media saying like, you guys know, I’m interested in nutrition and fitness I’ve been taking on clients, I actually have availability, for a couple people that want to lose, you know, 10 pounds before Thanksgiving.

Like if this sounds like you know, something that you want, just send me a message and we’ll chat. Getting people to raise their hands. So we can start a conversation is always going to be more effective that for as opposed to us reaching out to people, right? We think about like we talked about, we’re going full circle today, we talked about the click funnel Bros and the marketing Bros and the MLM people which are now just they message everyone, right?

Everyone on their friends list. Like do you want this thing? I have no idea if you want this, this, this serum, but I’m gonna sell it to you anyway kind of thing. I think it’s just like, hey, if you’d love glowing radiant skin, I got something you might be interested in. People like yeah, like, let’s talk about it. Just starting a conversation around that stuff. And then the next thing

Steve Washuta: there’s a psychology behind that too, right? If I reach out to you, then I know that I’m invested because it doesn’t seem salesy, right. So I’m actually I’m saying, Hey Mark, solve my problem. I’m doing the work.

Marc Morris: Yeah, we’re just getting people to raise their hands if they want the thing that we could potentially help them with, right? And then we can start a conversation. So in that situation around, you know, we were just talking earlier about, I’m fixing up an Airbnb and I had a carpenter over who also happens to be a personal friend, I like any opportunity, I have to chat with him and talk about things that I can fix things and he can take me under his wing, absolutely, I’m going to do it.

At the same time, I’m still going to pay him because it’s the most effective way for both of our time and me to watch and observe and all that stuff. I think the next thing that’s important is that we have a conversation around, you know, well, I know you want to accomplish this, let me Why don’t we talk about what that would look like, and show them the path moving forward. And therefore they are now pre sold on coaching, because you’ve showed them exactly what you’re going to do, and why you’ve kind of baked in the certainty around, they’re gonna get this certain results.

So we just got to have a process in place where it’s like, number one, get people raising their hands. Number two, have a conversation around, here’s what that would look like, let’s talk a little bit more about what a coaching relationship would look like so that you can get this result. And then from there, it’s like, those are the people from our social circle, that are now invested, bought in and want to work with us in a professional capacity.

Steve Washuta:   Yeah. And, you know, the best part about all this is, it’s not nonsense, you’re not lying, right? You’re, you’re telling the truth, I’m not, I’m not just trying to reel you in and saying, Hey, I’m not going to just allow you to do three sessions, because I’m making less money over the course of the year, when you’re really just not going to get to your goal.

So it’s different. If they come back and say, you know, I’m sorry, I just don’t have the time. If it’s not you at somebody else, I have $300, I’m willing to do three sessions with you. If you don’t want to do it, that’s fine. Like, if they come back with a strong rebuttal, fine, then you have to change it. But it is, like you said, it’s, it’s in our best interest, it’s in their best interest to make sure we at least pitch Hey, listen, I get that I can just watch you chip the ball, you know, once or twice or three times, we can go through the process and give you tips.

But really, unless I’m there with you for the first year, it’s not going to take there’s just too many repetitions. And there’s too much going on too much movement too much for me to teach, I just can’t show you a video, I can’t send you a few things. I’ve done this a lot. I’ve helped 30 Different people with this one way that I’m doing it. And this is this is like where I back myself from both a scientific standpoint, and from a coaching standpoint. And that’s all you can do if the rebuttal is Hey, no, I’m not going to do that. Well, then then then you go down that road

Marc Morris: completely. And I think it’s just talking about like, again, why do you want to fix your short game, right? It’s like, well, we’ve identified this is like for you to get to this next level in your golfing, this is what you’re going to need to fix.

We can take those three sessions, and I can teach you some things and it might be helpful. But I know the game changer for you is going to be spending a bit more time under a watchful eye. So you get this fix. And in six months, you’re going to be completely different golfer, that’s the path I think you should go down. Well, let’s talk about what that would look like.

Steve Washuta: Are you somebody who talks about where where people spend money and why it could be spent better? Do you think it shouldn’t ever really get to that conversation? I know that some people kind of pitch that as far as like sales and marketing, meaning like, oh, well, you know, how much money do you spend on your phone bill? And how much money do you spend each week when you you know, buy that extra beer? Or do you ever go down that path? Do you think that’s cheesy and not needed? What What are your thoughts on that?

Marc Morris: I think, okay, if we talked about this marketing and sales thing, I wouldn’t use that in a marketing approach to get people interested because people are going to spend their money however they want to spend it. And if anything, if someone wants to buy a brand new iPhone, but they won’t pay for my training, is because I haven’t positioned it as being valuable enough.

And I’m just not going to convince them if we want to stick with a golf analogy, like you convincing those people like your way out of bounds trying to hit 150 yards behind a tree, convincing people that this is the right move for them, what we got to do is, again, with some of the hand raising and just get people that are already interested, that are going to be tap ins, right, like that’s what we need to like, put ourselves out there for because all that energy that we spent convincing people that aren’t going to be good clients anyway, could be spent identifying and finding and nurturing relationships with people that are just so much closer anyway.

Like, you’re not that like it’s not good. Now, the flip side is once I sit down with someone, be it it’s funny, sit down with someone, once I started corresponding online with someone in a conversation around this and they say, Well, you know, I’m just not sure about the value here. That type of thing. I want to always have something in place that shows I have the path, the results and why it’s valuable, as well as that’s when I start to overcome some of these objections, where it’s like, cost and value and all that kind of stuff because they’re gonna come up right near the end.

When someone’s deciding should I go down this path? So that’s when you start to work in that type of stuff. I don’t know if I’d start compare things in their budget, because that’s I don’t really feel like that’s our place slash I don’t think it’s that effective. But when I talk about where they want to go, why they haven’t been able to achieve it in the past? And how good it would make them feel that they’re finally able to achieve it.

That cost around that thing becomes much less of a barrier for them to do it. Because like, How good would it feel if you were able to lose, you know, 30 pounds in the next year, and you showed up at your son’s wedding next summer, feeling your complete best? They will that feel that would feel pretty good. It’s like, it’s probably worth this investment, is it not? It is

Steve Washuta: no good information. This has been great practical information so far in the marketing and the sales. Now we’re going to continue that. But I’m going to ask more specific questions around what clients will typically ask someone like you, or someone like me, and maybe this has a little bit more science, but maybe it doesn’t, I don’t know how you’re going to respond. Because again, Mark has to respond to these questions.

As a nutrition coach, to me, who is not Steve, I am not Stephen, this case, I am the general population. So how Mark would respond to me in this question is different than how we respond to the general population. Clients asked this all the time. I’m sure they ask it to you, how do you respond to them? Not how not how you respond to me? Is fruit bad for me? That’s what the client asks you, when they sit down, and they’re going over their sort of diet regimen. They’re talking about food? How do you respond to them?

Marc Morris: It’s a great question. I think that the biggest thing with frequently asked questions and questions that people ask, I think it’s always an opportunity to number one, obviously answered the question, we’re not going to disregard it entirely. But it’s always an opportunity to clarify what’s most important in this process.

So I always bring it back to like, you know, either if things aren’t going well, and they’re worried about something that is the kind of minute not a big influencer and their process, always bring it back to the thing that matters most. So it’s like, that’s such a good question. I know there’s a lot of buzz around, like, should you be eating fruit? And is there too much sugar because it does have sugar in it?

Absolutely. I think it’s like one of those things, where it’s like, for the amount of activity you’re doing and your goals, and we’ve set you up on this plan, there’s no reason why you can’t consume fruit. It’s not inherently fattening. You’re controlling the things right now that are going to allow you to reach your body composition goals. And those specific foods within that aren’t going to matter as much as you stick into those overall food levels that we prescribed.

Now, within that fruit, one of the best things that you can do to consume based on your carb allotment, and I would encourage you to do it, probably around like two to three servings per day, you don’t need to be worried about this, the science within it is that like you’ve probably been led to believe that you consume some sugar is going to spike your insulin, you’re going to store fat. Keep in mind, the amount of food that you’re you’re eating.

And if you stick to that, there’s no possible way you’ll gain fat because it’s been scientifically designed by me, for you to be in a deficit or that kind of thing. So it’s like bringing them back to their goals and then also doing like about it. So it’s like, I would probably kind of like bake it into number one clarifying why their questions important.

Why it doesn’t really matter. Because a lot of times the question is so minut that it like it’s not a huge influence around things, but also making them not feel like it’s like they put an energy to ask you this question. It’s clearly important to them, but also making a little bit of science around. This whole insulin thing that you’ve probably heard a little bit about. Here’s why it’s not as important as you doing the thing that you’re currently doing and sticking to that.

Steve Washuta: I love that answer. And I love how you said specifically, yes, you want to answer the question. And you don’t want to make the client feel as if they asked a dumb question or that you’re trying to avoid it. But it’s also important to somehow bake it in that ultimately, we have a goal in mind.

And this is sort of a minute question that doesn’t really affect our goal that much. And I can’t think of the perfect fitness analogy. But sometimes I have small things where clients are like, well, we’re doing pull ups, how come we’re doing this grip, instead of that grip? It’s like, well, you know, okay, maybe I’m recruiting bicep a little bit more if I’m going sort of supinated underneath grip, but ultimately, like, we’re just trying to work on your back muscles.

That’s really what we’re doing here. And if you know, this is the grip we want to use, because it’s a little bit easier for you. It’s not a big deal, right? We’re not, we’re not, that’s if your goal was to do four pull ups. We’re going to get you there this way. Don’t don’t necessarily worry about the grip right now. But I will still explain it to you. So that you know that I’m the professional, I know what’s going on and that it’s not a dumb question. But But here’s our here’s our sort of macro goal. And we need to zoom back out and look at that and trust that this is what we’re doing in the process.

Marc Morris: And then I think the biggest thing is, if it’s an existing client that’s asking those questions, I think it’s always our opportunity to clarify, this is why this isn’t important because you haven’t been able to execute on this consistently. And you really got to put all your energy in here into this thing and focus on this and only this, it’s like fruit or not, like you’re just you’re still not doing this.

So so keep that in mind. If it’s a client that you know, a new client potential lead that type of thing. I think it is our opportunity to answer that question as well. As I gain a little bit more insight around what they want to accomplish, so now we can lead the path to, like, just show them the path to a result.

Steve Washuta: Yeah. And sometimes it’s because those questions are trying to figure out something where we already have the answer to it, meaning like, the client might say something like, oh, it’s real bad for me, because they think maybe they ate more fruit last week than usual, and they haven’t met their goal. And you’re like, now the reason you didn’t meet your goal is because of XY and Z. It’s not because of the extra fruit, right?

That is why sometimes I’ll have clients come to me be like. Oh, I saw like this exercise. Do you think we should be like deadlifting this way or doing this? And that because they didn’t get the number they want until last week? Because like, No, you didn’t get the number you want to last week. So you want to, you want to shift course here and like find a blame game. But there are other reasons. And let’s, let’s, let’s go back to your plan and see what were what criteria were not meeting.

Marc Morris: I think with a lot of these questions. People are asking just as much for permission as they are for actual insight. So when someone comes to me as a powerlifting. Coach and says, Should I cut wait for my first powerlifting meet? In reality, what they’re asking is like, yeah, exactly. And as someone that is like, I don’t know, I, I tried to be risk adverse. It’s like, if you’re going to do this. I’d rather you do it under my supervision with evidence based practices. And me to guide you down it because you’re going to do it regardless with or without me.

And ultimately, it’s not your decision. Of course, if it’s a terrible idea, I’ll tell you that this isn’t the right fit kind of thing. In most cases, people are going to do with or without you. They are really just Should I take this supplement isn’t? Tell me about the evidence surrounding the supplement is like, Should I continue taking this?

Steve Washuta: Yeah, I’ve been taking this for a month, and I just want to hear what you say. And it’s, like, outside of should I should I take

Marc Morris: BCAAs? Right? It’s not like I’m going to the store right now to buy these. It’s I’m like, mid scoop. Yeah.

Steve Washuta: It’s like when you ask your wife. You’re like, What do you think about me buying a new car. It’s like, you’ve already contacted the guy at the car dealership, and like. You’ve you’ve basically done everything else except sign the final paperwork. Just wanna hear, we’re just gonna say, not that I would do that. But you know, for those who would,

Marc Morris: wouldn’t put you past you cranky? Steve.

Steve Washuta: Cranky? Steve, you never know what he’s going to be up to. So the next question clients ask all the time I’ve had a whole. I had a really good conversation with Chris Scott. Who’s a friend of mine, about alcohol, how it affects workouts, how it affects diets. How it affects our body. But inevitably, most people drink. Most people are going to continue to drink outside of Mark working with. Let’s say, a high level athlete who’s willing to give it all up.

People are just not willing to give up that glass of wine or two. Or the few beers with their friends on the weekends. So what what we say and from a very general basis. And I imagine that you’re just going to piggyback on this. But maybe you have more specifics is that. Hey, listen, if you want to continue to drink, that’s fine.

But it’s going to slow down the progress in getting to our goals. Is that what you tell clients who ask. Or do you kind of go into more maybe science based alcohol related thing? Yeah,

Marc Morris: I probably would be even like a bit more pro booze than that. Just from the sense of like. I think the people, again. That are asking this do want to have a few beverages and that type of thing. I think once we’re in a paid coaching relationship, again. This isn’t something that I probably talked about as much in marketing. But in a paid coach relationship, this, it’s this is all pros and cons. There’s there’s drawbacks to everything.

And there’s compromises to all of this stuff. And if you’re willing to make those compromises, which in your case is, you know. You drink too much. And it starts to impact your training and recovery. It is going to take a longer time to get to your goal or things are going to be suboptimal. And if you’re willing to have that trade off. By all means, continue on. I just wanted to be upfront about that, because at a certain level, it will impact things.

Now, if you want to socially drink. Here’s some strategies you can use to work one to two drinks in with minimal impact to your fitness. As well as your body composition. which I think as an adult, you know. We should be able to do those things and work that stuff in. I think the biggest thing is if this is someone that wants to drink. And you’re not going to give them those strategies, it’s going to be them assuming that you don’t that it’s drinking is off limits. And that’ll just have the exact opposite effect that you wanted to, which is I did a bad thing I’m going to continue to drink, it’s gonna get worse.

And then I’m really, you know. The trust isn’t there. It’s going to be a huge setback. it’s things are going to be worse. I’d rather just be upfront with it and have the strategies in place. And that’s where, you know, in a paid coaching relationship, asking questions around, hey, what’s coming up this week? What do we got to plan for. Is always going to be easier to get in front of things and have. You know an adult conversation around what that looks like so that you can get on the same page.

Steve Washuta: I think what you do is probably harder than what I do in most instances. But I do think this particular instance is harder on my end. So what I’ll say is why I say that is the what I have to plan for with my clients. I don’t want you coming in after a night of drinking because then. That sort of that ruins our that our work together.

So that’s why the competition gets it harder. It’s like, hey, if your goal is have a really good workout, you know. If you’re if you’re out drinking all night, like, you know. Bender kind of deal not having two glasses of wine. Like if you want to have a bender, because I would have clients who were like. I was drinking whiskey to like two in the morning. And they come in for like a 6am session, it’s like, well. You’re useless right now. You’re wasting your money, you’re wasting my time.

And it’s just, it’s just not good for anybody. So you need to make sure that have your fun, sleep it off. Do your thing we’ll meet the next day like I want. I need you when you’re optimal. So we can push your body to the level. I need to push you. To there’s no point of having me for a half hour of you just sludging around here.

Marc Morris: I think at that point, it’s definitely like impeding your work together. So that’s a conversation that needs to be had. As well as kind of we’re around probably disrespectful more than anything right? So it’s just like, kind of getting in front of that stuff. I think at the same time. It just having those opportunities to ask those questions. About like what’s important to you here? What are the non negotiables? What does that look like? And what are you willing to risk? Because, you know, there’s always trade offs with any of these things, and kind of going from there.

Steve Washuta:  So you know, one of the conflicting, one of the conflicting goals here is that people want more muscle while they’re losing weight, right? Everyone says, I want to tone up. I want to look really cut and lean. I want to gain muscle and I also want to lose 15 pounds.

That’s something that clients come to how do you sort of go through the process of explaining conflicting goals. And what is your what is your process and maybe trying to either coax them one way or the other. Or just explain to them that this is going to be very unlikely for us to do?

Marc Morris: I think actually, even the science around like. Can you do both at the same time is catching up a little bit. I think for sure. If you want meaningful results. When it comes to body composition, you should go in one direction or the other. It doesn’t need to be extreme. But you need to be investing your energy, your eating, and you know. Like the environment to either gain muscle or lose fat, or just stay the same if you stay the same.

And slowly try to recomp the meaningful results are just going to be much less than either direction, right? We don’t see them as often it’s just like, very, very slow and steady. For most individuals. It’s best to periodized this stuff and think about, okay, let’s head in this direction. And focus on that and kind of go from there. In reality, when people get started. They’re gonna want everything at every which time and then it’s just again. Just like alcohol, explaining to them the trade offs and the priorities of this stuff.

And it’s like, I know, this is why you want this. But keep in mind, if you truly want to get to this place. The first place to start is for you to be gaining some muscle. And you might have to stay at your current level of leanness right now to achieve that. Now we can do this in phases. And I want to talk to you a little bit more about what that would look like. But that is going to be the best chance of you set up for success.

Now, you could do both at the same time. But it’s just going to be painfully slow. And you’re not going to feel like anything’s working. And you may or may not hate me. And that doesn’t sound like a good way for us to work together. So let me show you kind of what this would break down. And look like roughly because things change and timelines change. But that is going to be your best chance of success. And that’s why I would encourage you to go that direction.

Steve Washuta: That’s a great answer. And I think honestly, Mark. It’s one of the biggest, most difficult questions that personal trainers deal with because everybody wants that. And it’s such a pain point. And obviously, we don’t always handle their nutrition. But if you do have someone who’s a nutrition coach and a personal trainer. It’s also hard to say. Hey listen, you just like yell at them, like you’re not eating enough.

Like we can’t do this, you can’t be having 1300 calories, if your goal is xy and z. I find it a pain point that I’ve dealt with in the past. And a lot of other personal trainers deal with when working with clients. I think that’s a good way to describe it and just say. Hey, listen, your your progress is going to be slow, little to nothing.

If you go about it this way, you’re not going to like me. It’s going to be a weird relationship. You just have to trust me. And we have to sort of figure out what’s more important to you go one angle. And then sort of work around, we’ll get to your goal. You know, it might take four months. But if we get to your goal the way you want. It’s gonna take nine months. And it’s and it’s not going to be it’s not gonna be fun.

Marc Morris: Awesome. Yeah, I think one of the biggest pros that having the capacity to control someone’s nutrition. And also their training is that like you can kind of. You have control over much more of it outside of just the training sessions and that type of thing. So it’s one of those things where sometimes I’ll even like. If they’re dead set on that, again, we’re not convincing people outside of this stuff.

And I think a lot of times. One of the most effective coaching strategies is like let’s do things your way for a certain period of time. Where I’m constantly reminding you why this isn’t going as quickly. As you want so that they can do it my way. That’s the same thing with the weight cutting thing, right? It’s like I’m going to do and it’s like, Listen, this is too much and not the best environment. We can go about it anyway. And I’m gonna set do my best to set you up for success, but I really wouldn’t do it. Again, the decision is up to you.

We go down it you’re looking at this you know. An 18 year A kid sitting down at a powerlifting meet looking completely zapped and dead. And you’re thinking, you see what I’m saying? This is older stuff, right? And from there, the Trust has just been like. Baked in and built in because you like. you know, within the right arrangement did it did it their way. And now they’re like, yep, you’re right, let’s let’s do it your way, that kind of thing.

I think like, again. The majority 90% of coaching and training is going to be reassuring people that they’re on the right track. And reminding them where they’re coming from. And where they’re going, and why they need to continue doing the things that they’re doing. Like, it’s not anything more than that. And if you can kind of continue to be like, Hey, listen, you know, you started at 180. And now you’re 184. And maybe it’s a little bit slow. But we’re heading in the right direction. You need to continue on this path.

Keep in mind, like, if you weren’t focusing on any of this stuff, you’d probably be going backwards. And you don’t want to be doing that. So like, let’s, let’s continue on. And if you can do that stuff, enough. People will see the value of it. And they’ll continue to be engaged and buy in and kind of go from there.

Steve Washuta: Mark, this has been fantastic information. Maybe even better than the first podcast. Give the listeners in the audience. All of your info where they can find your program where they can maybe reach out to you personally if they have any questions. Your Instagram and anything else you can think of.

Marc Morris: Yeah, I’m probably most active on Instagram. me RC W Morris. But I’ve really been diving into my YouTube lately. And then just enjoying the entire process around long form content. So I’d encourage you to check it out there as well. Our next program will start in January. But you can always reach out for a little more information. And see if it’s a good fit by sending me a message or an email.

Steve Washuta: I guess today has been Dr. Mark Morris Mark, thank you for joining the podcast.

Marc Morris: Thanks for having me.

Steve Washuta: Thanks for joining us on the Trulyfit podcast. Please subscribe, rate, and review on your listening platform. Feel free to email us as we’d love to hear from you.

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