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Guest: Dr. Marc Morris
Release Date: 3/21/2022
Welcome to Trulyfit the online fitness marketplace connecting pros and clients through unique fitness business software.
Steve Washuta: Welcome to the Trulyfit podcast where we interview experts in fitness and health to expand our wisdom and wealth. I am your host, Steve Washuta, co-founder of Trulyfit and author of Fitness Business 101. In today’s episode, I interviewed Dr. Marc Morris, you can find him at Mark That’s ma RC W Morris on Instagram, Dr. Marks, educational background is in nutrition. But really what he does now is help nutritional coaches market themselves and understand how to use proper marketing techniques to grow their business.
He also is very adept in the science side. Our conversations are a little bit about marketing a little bit about science, a little bit about the really the industry what is going on in the fitness and health and nutrition industry now as far as people who are giving advice and the content in which you should use to best pass along to your clients through social media and how best to use that because a lot of people don’t really know they think they know.
But Mark has really good tips and tools to advance in your business marketing as a nutrition coach and really as a fitness coach. It spans both realms here. So I really enjoyed this conversation Mark and I see eye to eye a lot. And with no further ado, here is Dr. Mark Morris. Mark, thanks so much for joining the Trulyfit podcast want to give the listeners in my audience a brief background on you your credentials, your intellectual pursuits, your fitness, your nutrition, all the things you do in our space.
Dr. Marc Morris: Steve, thanks for having me on. I’m really really looking forward to chatting today. Nutrition fitness has been like this the central part of my life over the last 20 years, I think pretty similar story in terms of upbringing played high school sports was somewhat competitive realize that the best way to get better at those was like lifting weights and focusing what I ate.
And I discovered that through that time you could actually lift weights competitively and got into some powerlifting and was always kind of a science-minded kid and thought about what we’re going to take things and I ended up at undergrad taking chemistry and didn’t particularly love it. And I know all my friends were thinking, they loved analytical chemistry and I was a guy and I just want to hang out in the weight room. So I’ve been went through the process of undergraduate in science thinking, Where can I take things to the next step apply for grad school in nutrition continued to just focus on powerlifting, coaching people, all those things, but continue to get more credentials.
And I ended up finishing up with a PhD in human nutrition, but I really, really loved working with people one on one through this entire time. So I’ve been kind of on a couple decade long journey of figuring out this whole nutrition and fitness piece and how it influences our body composition and overall health and teaching what I know to others. And now transitioning more to in the business space in terms of how to teach other nutrition coaches, how to grow profitable online nutrition coaching businesses. So that’s kind of the briefest recap of me where I’m coming from. And you’re based in Canada. Is that correct? That’s right. Yeah. I currently living in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada.
Steve Washuta: So forgive my naivety here my American sort of ethnocentrism but is the is the schooling is the educational process the same in Canada as it is in America in so far as like the credentialing to become what you are?
Dr. Marc Morris: Yeah, it’d be very, very similar. Obviously, in terms of the nutritional hierarchy and stuff, we have different levels in terms of like nutrition coach would be someone who is working, not as credentialed working with body composition clients, someone without active disease, that type of thing. We have registered dieticians and the dietetics process, it would be very similar to the states in terms of four to five year nutrition degree with a practicum, that type of thing. And then more research based pursuits in terms of higher education, master’s degrees, PhDs, that type of thing.
Steve Washuta: I feel like this would come up anyway in the conversation at some point. So let’s just get it over with I asked everybody this, who’s involved in nutrition on any level? Yeah. What do you think about the sort of the macro picture of the credentialing process and who should be giving information and who shouldn’t? Because I can tell you from a personal trainers perspective, it’s very frowned upon by the, by the certification.
So let’s say National Academy of Sports Medicine, or ACE, or all these people, at first have been saying, if you’re a personal trainer, you shouldn’t be stepping on toes, and you should sort of stay in your lane and not give nutrition information. But now they all have nutritional certifications that they hand out because they see all the marketing and the money inside of it. And it’s just, it’s a very confusing landscape. And I just like to hear everyone’s perspective on.
Dr. Marc Morris: Yeah, totally. I don’t want to share my experience. And this is definitely something that is just my opinion, but what I’ve also what I’ve seen through training others, specifically nutrition coaches, which would be I mean, I guess I’m coming from a place where I spent five years working on my PhD, teaching to full university courses.
To the dietetic students, so I know like I guess both sides of the coin here pretty pretty well, there’s quite a bit of gray area in terms of who should be doing what, but I think where we can draw the line is that well, first of all, none of the nutrition coaches that I train are going in and trying to switch tube feeds on a clinical patient, right, like it’s sick, it’s not happening.
And I don’t know if that’s a legitimate concern or who feels like, what information is protected. And who should be disseminating that and teaching that stuff. But I think the biggest thing being quite a bit of gray area, personal trainers, obviously, I would say, in your experience, how many people are looking to come to you for training with somebody competition-related goal,
Steve Washuta: usually, usually
Dr. Marc Morris: be at secondary or like, like yours,
Steve Washuta: it’s almost always the primary goal. Unless I’m working with a post op person, right, someone coming to me pre or post op for some sort of almost physical therapy as training. Yeah,
Dr. Marc Morris: totally. In the gaming in that realm, there’s some aspects of nutrition that would make the recovery process much more effective, that type of thing, it’s one of those things, it’s almost disingenuous not to approach nutrition component with a client, because in so many cases, they’re looking to influence some sort of process that is completely related to nutrition. And that’s not to say trainees nutrition are important, but it’s just, it’s one of those things that is like so integral to the process. I feel like in terms of defining scope, someone with the right certifications, it’s totally in their wheelhouse to give recommendations that would influence someone’s body composition, be it weight loss, muscle gain, overall athletic performance, and that type of thing, where the gray areas and where we can start to, you know, define roles and draw lines in the sands is when there’s active disease and legitimate diagnosis.
And I think the people that I train, and what we what we teach is, number one, if you could consider that that client, a patient and not a client, you shouldn’t be working with them. Right? Like that’s the debate, like one of the biggest things, it’s like, just think about this, in that sense. If you’re giving any recommendations, that is going to influence a disease state that isn’t controlled, that’s also not in, you know, in your scope.
But for the majority of the time, it’s like some of this like, guard, keeping around nutritional information is not helping the process at all, like how many weight loss centers with very, very sketchy practices are still currently operating with people that are far less credentialed than the ones that were trying to gatekeeping the middle, if that makes sense. So I think the landscape is, is very, it’s very much a mess. And to be completely honest, I’m doing my best to change that. Because I think what we do to highlight the true nutritional professionals is raise them up and not try to guard keep the rest of the information. If that, if that makes any sense.
Steve Washuta: Makes perfect sense. Yeah. And I’m just glad to have your perspective being that. Obviously, you’re well-credentialed in this area, but you work with other coaches, and you and you have a good perspective on the full like we keep using this term, but it just makes sense. The full landscape of what’s going on, there are people who are giving information, who don’t seem like they should be giving information because they don’t have the credentials, but actually through, you know, anecdotal research and through working with hundreds and hundreds of clients and seeing successes, they’re giving information to compare it to something in my in my industry, Marcus, you just he was just on the Joe Rogan podcast, the knees over toes guy who’s now got 1 million followers.
So it’s always been this thing to say like, never knees over toes, never knees over toes, it’s so bad for you. And this guy’s proven everybody wrong all the exercise prescriptions from the 70s 80s and 90s. And like now, it’ll take 20 years before the books are rewritten. But we’re going to start using more knees over toes exercises to help with not only recovery but all building strength. And I think there’s there’s those sorts of comparisons, I’m sure you know them better in the health industry, where there’s probably a lot of things going on that are like no, no, no, don’t do that, that you see are working and 20 years from now are going to be in in the books.
Dr. Marc Morris: Totally. No, I couldn’t agree more. And even just especially in the nutrition field in landscape, like so many other industries have paraprofessionals that, like are successful at certain specific things. And I think from a nutritional perspective, there’s just such a need for that technical type role in working with people on the individual level. Um, like we see it in pharmacy, for example, like pharmacists, clinical pharmacist, pharmacists, pharmacy technicians, right like there’s like, I think, if anything, there’s just been a huge gap in some of those paraprofessional roles with the right education and the right approach would be the other thing and then we’ll probably talk about that today in terms of why intuition coaching has exploded is because it’s like the right the right model the right approach and focusing on things that people truly need and will pay for. So it’s one of those things where it’s like, it’s just a perfect storm.
And that’s why it’s taken off. But I think there’s just, there’s just a great opportunity to help people and improve their health, like the health overall health of our community, and nations and that type of thing through this type of approach. And it’s one of those things where clearly like, something needs to change, something needs to be different because the current setup and who is safeguarding information, all that stuff just isn’t really working?
Steve Washuta: Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. I don’t know what the answer is. But I think continued discussion like this back and forth with people who have interesting ideas like yourself, is the only way to go about it. And I didn’t even really think of that having like, you know, the more of the power professional. And I think where that works, it seems to is when you have these people training under everyone else, or working in concert with them.
And you could explain to me either now or further on in the podcast, but I don’t I don’t know if that’s how it works. Right now, in the nutrition industry. I think you have a program that’s similar to that. But as far as there being like, let’s say in America, we have registered dieticians or CNS Certified Nutritional specialists, they both are highly credentialed and go through, you know, after studying, they’re either in the hospitals or they’re working under other nutritionists, right in practices and seeing what’s going on.
And then you have people who just have like a nutrition certification like I’m a weight loss specialist, it took me right, it took me two hours to become a weight loss specialist. Right. I just clicked a bunch of buttons and paid $100. So and I’m not working in concert with a registered dietician, right. So like that. And I think that’s really the issue is that there needs to be a program level thing where the certifications for nutrition are not being given out by the fitness people. It’s they’re actually being given out underneath our DS and CNS.
Dr. Marc Morris: Exactly. I couldn’t agree more. And we’re not we’re not there yet. And I’m not sure we’ll get there just because of the like some of the I don’t, I would say that the not like, like the non political arguments, but it’s one of those things where it’s like, I’m not sure that they’re willing to go to that space, because they see themselves as the experts. And they should be doing those roles. But I think the best way to change this is to influence it from the bottom up and approach like that would be much more effective.
And also impactful from the experts since the expert point of view, right? Where they can now create different revenue streams and influence things the way they see fit, and kind of go from there. But I think the biggest the other argument is like, what does the consumer want? And what do they value? And what do like, what do they need help with? And I think educators tend to get that wrong time and time again.
Right? Yeah. And that’s where you have, you have, you know, decades of experience in marketing in terms of giving people the idea of where they’re going, what they want, what they want to accomplish, I think educators, at times focus too much about too much on how to do things, and what is quote-unquote, right and overlook a lot of the things that would attract people to making meaningful change in their lives. So that’s a whole other thing that, you know, is tough, right? So yeah, man. It’s an interesting conversation. And I know, this is one of those things where I don’t think we plan on talking about this, but it’s such a valid thing to talk about and like necessary.
Steve Washuta: Yeah, and you know, the problem with that educators have, you know, my wife, I think we talked on the front end before we reporting as a pediatrician, she’s been following this regimen, her whole life, where it’s like, okay, well, first you go to college, you get these grades, and then you apply to med school, then you go to med school, and they tell you what to do all throughout med school, and then you go to residency to tell you what to do at a residency and then you and like, before you know it, you’re close to 30 years old, and you’ve never made like a conscious decision on your own.
You’re just been like, you just been passing tests on the path. Yes. So because you’re on the path, you’re not really thinking outside the box, you’re not thinking how it’s going to be used, maybe like in the interpersonal client dynamics, right, that what I call like client relations, and you’re just thinking about how to give the how to give proper information, but not how it works, and how they want to receive information,
Dr. Marc Morris: completely, completely. And I think, obviously, like a specialty doctor, like dad is in a different situation, but we see it all the time. You know, you see it in social media, in referring to GPS and that type of stuff where, you know, they’re not prescribing the right things or not focusing on the right things. It’s just like, not what, you know, it’s just, that’s not what they’ve been trained to do.
Right. It’s diagnosis and fixing the immediate problem and that type of thing. So I think there’s just the biggest thing, there’s room for all of us. And I think we really do need to innovate and think about how we’re going to use this information to apply it to the people that truly need our help, versus always being right or always doing the same, you know, doing the same thing over and over.
Steve Washuta: So I’m completely spitballing here, I’m just you know, my brain is turning as we’re talking. So let’s go ahead and say there’s some sort of community it’s a doctor more community, and there’s a tiered structure there’s maybe six high level register dietitians people like you, whatever, you don’t PhDs. And then there’s 12, underneath that, that have a little bit less certifications.
And there’s 2400, that that have a little bit less, right as you go up the ladder, there’s less of them, people apply to be into some sort of nutrition program. And then based upon the intricacy of whatever they may have going on, they get bumped up the ladder or down the ladder.
So if it’s Steve, completely healthy, 35 years old, and I say, Hey, I’m just looking to maybe I’m having problem keeping weight on I want to up my calories in a healthy way, you bumped me down to the lowest level wrong, if it’s the 76-year-old with COPD, and type two diabetes and a history of cancer that she gets bumped all the way up to mark I mean, is this what we’re looking for moving forward in the future?
Dr. Marc Morris: Completely. And I think that’s why coaching has changed things. Because the model is different. There’s a level of accountability and follow through and continuation of care that just isn’t isn’t, isn’t done. So even Steve, who doesn’t have any, like overwhelming health problems or something can still accomplish great things, because you’ve had someone step by step guiding you through the process that we wouldn’t be able to do with a GP or something, someone more specialized, because they just don’t have the time.
Steve Washuta: Yeah, they really don’t have the time and it’s not their fault, I will say that my wife has 15 minutes with each patient, somebody walks in and says, Hey, I think I’m depressed I, my teacher tells me I have ADHD, and I sprained my ankle. And oh, by the way, maybe I just started having sex, I have to deal with all four of those things. As a pediatrician, I have 15 minutes. So and it’s not their fault.
That’s just how insurance currently works. They have to sort of burn in churn, or else they won’t be open, these places will close down, if they don’t see 24 patients a day. So it’s I talked about this all the time on the podcast mark. And basically, that the way forward for the future is to not have these scalable models. And somehow to reduce down at least in my opinion, the amount of people you’re working with, and just do a better job. So like, I tell personal trainers, this too, you can make an entire career.
With eight connections, you can have eight people who want to work out with you, one two or three times a week, and you do a really good job. And you can you can make enough money for a career, you don’t need to have scalability all the time, you just need to be able to do a good job with a small amount of people so that they’re always coming back to you.
Dr. Marc Morris: Completely. Yep, I couldn’t, I couldn’t agree more. And I think I think we’re at the beginning phases of changing, like some of the ways we approach the situation, be it like an active disease, but also just improving overall health.
Steve Washuta: So we went over some of those things that we were going to talk about later on. And let’s let’s go backwards, explained to the Dr. Mark method. How do you How did you set up your program? How did it come about? How long have you been in existence?
Dr. Marc Morris: Yeah, so I mentioned earlier, like, I really enjoy teaching and taught to full university courses at the, at the dietetics level and macronutrients and metabolism and some like seminar based courses and that type of thing, really enjoyed teaching.
But what I love more was the application of nutritional research to get people results, specifically, body comp, like I spend a lot of time as a powerlifter teaching or coaching other power lifters in to our weight class boards. So it’s like stuff that like no is results focused in that type of thing. As well as just like the business of the stuff. If I could tell you one thing I enjoy doing, it’s selling things to people on the internet. It’s like, I love it. I think it’s just the coolest thing.
So being able to reach other people in you know, in truly scalable models and stuff and I have been coaching online since 2011. It was funny like the well, the pandemics not funny but it was funny in the last few years where we started people seeing people throw their hands up in the air and being like, I got to go online, what does this look like yada yada, I was like, I, I’ve been talking to people on the internet like this for the last seven years, because I truly thought it was the best way to approach things in terms of delivering a service to my clients, and being effective and just economical.
So it’s like, oh, man, I’ve been doing this already. So three years ago, I had an idea of like, well, what if I took this and everything I know in terms of applying the science of nutrition, and we’ll talk in terms of the nitty-gritty around how we do that, but into a certification course so that I could take other people like personal trainers that interact day in day out with clients that want to lose weight or get stronger things that are influenced by nutrition, but they have limited contact points in terms of I see three times a week, I can’t control the other 23 hours, I pretty much throw my hands up in the air, I can give you a few tips and strategies in between sets when you’re heavy breathing, but it’s really not the right place. You know, like did you eat your proteins? I know I did. I can’t, I can’t do it.
You know, it’s like that’s not the right place for this. So that type of thing and passionate individuals that you know, need the credentials to be able to set up a true evidence based coaching practice and take some people under their wing and influence lives. So in terms of me, creating more impact teaching others, it was just a logical next step. And we’ve been able to do that with a combination of science based stuff.
This is really the university course I always wanted to teach, I would say it’d be like taking a college level, metabolism class, but really, really applied one of those things where it’s like, where’s the Krebs cycle, it’s like, your clients don’t care. Like that kind of thing. So it’s like, really, really focused. But then also teaching people how to set up the actual back end business stuff. So you can deliver an effective service.
And at the end, what I think is sets my program apart is I take someone, our actual coaches will take someone under their under their wing and coach someone for like a real life practicum. So you go from start to finish once you’ve built out the actual process, under my supervision. So from the first direct message, Hey, Steve, I know you’re really into this nutrition thing. I got some goals, what does that look like you take them through assessment, setting them up on a plan, the sales process, marketing, that type of stuff, graduating a client and going from there, so you can build some confidence that you can actually do it on your own, which is definitely lacking in a lot of conventional certification programs, where it’s like, I went through this and they didn’t teach me how to coach people, I kind of thought that was coming in. It didn’t.
Steve Washuta: Yeah, the the practical application of the certifications, even even the higher level personal trainer certifications, it’s just not there. If the interactive fitness trainers of America, I’m going to have Greg Sims on soon, who is a co owner of that, I took that certification, personal trainer certification many years ago, 1012 years ago, and they had a practical program, which I thought was amazing. You went in, and they they went through the book with you, they gave me they sent me the book in advance, and you would do everything, but then they would bring you into the weight room.
And they would have everyone like they are around you. But they would say like, okay, set a client up on this machine, like, what are all the things you would do, like, walk me through how you would spot them using dumbbells? Now walk me through how you would spot them using dumbbells, if they have an injury in XYZ area. And then and then they would take you individually into a room and you would go over certain things, let’s give give me a stretch for whatever the so as and you and so on and so forth. And they would walk you through these things? And I think I get that’s difficult to do from a, from a financial standpoint, probably right? It’s gonna cost more in some respects, especially if you have to be on site. I guess yours doesn’t have to be through the nutrition aspect. But it’s it’s important because not only are you releasing these people into the wild, so to speak, having having
Dr. Marc Morris: exactly what I say, yeah, it isn’t releasing them into the wild. It’s like, Yeah, they’ll actually well, you’ve got to build some momentum and confidence that you’ll actually be able to do that. And then you give them that practical approach. And they’ve practice it and got those reps in and like they’re gonna be in a much better place. And yeah, maybe, maybe it won’t be as economical. But the chances of succeeding is just so much more likely.
Steve Washuta: Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. And then also, maybe somebody finds out, this isn’t for them quicker. And they get out of this. And they’re like, I thought this was for me, but I’m not, I really don’t want to interact with clients like this, because there are more, at least in the fitness side, I can’t speak to complete the nutrition side.
But there are so many jobs mark now that you can do in health and fitness. It’s not just be a personal trainer. So I talked about in my book I have there’s there’s two sorts of training styles. There’s more than that, but I just divided into two you have direct, you have people who are like chemistry minded, maybe like you who are really good with the books, and they can look at a body mark and be like, Okay, I see knee valgus here, I see this going on here. your pecs are tight here, whatever, they can fix someone, but they’re not dynamic.
They can’t light up a room, they can’t teach a TRX class of 12 people with good music and get things going right. So that so they have to go towards that way more, maybe they decide to go into research as opposed to a group personal training, whatever it is, but knowing yourself and having these experiences is going to direct you to the right niche to make you successful.
Dr. Marc Morris: Completely. And what a better way to like find that out sooner and save yourself a lot of headaches and time than throwing yourself in the fire and going through those learning experiences. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Maybe someone really likes just like the sales process, right? Like, there’s like some, there’s so much front end stuff.
And there’s stuff on the back end. And you’re right, there’s people that are going to be much more analytical and think about things in different ways. So just going through those experiences, and I think, in terms of the market, like presenting different opportunities allows people to do that.
Steve Washuta: Yeah, I tell the young personal trainers who I helped mentor, Shadow, nobody’s gonna say no to you, especially in our industry as mark where people are like, they want to teach you their ways. Like you want to teach people how you do things, right. So why so if anyone asks me like, Hey, can I shadow one of your sessions? Like, even remotely? Can I just see what you do? Sure, of course, like, this is what we want to do.
We want to help young people. So by shadowing all of these different professionals, you get to see what works, what doesn’t, how maybe you can steal some things from them. And maybe you find something that I do that you hate me like I would never do that I would never do a student does. That’s fine. But at least you’ve learned on the path.
Dr. Marc Morris: Totally. And some of the best learning experiences are actually seeing what you don’t want to do. Right and figuring out quickly that doesn’t feel authentic. To me. That’s not the right approach and kind of going from They’re, I think there’s definitely a myth around people that are more established into careers that they don’t want to give away this information. And to me, it’s like the complete opposite. Like, the only reason why my program costs any money is because it’s the best way for people to take it seriously.
And when people pay, they pay attention. And we’re going to get better results. And it’s gonna help me create a better business. But I would I did do this exact same thing with people on a mentorship capacity for free six years ago. Yeah, right. It didn’t work out. Because, you know, like that. But like, the people in these more established areas, they want to teach other people that they know. And that’s the best way for them to continue to increase their impact, and take it to the next level. So just creating and fostering more learning environments like that.
Steve Washuta: Yeah, that paying and taking seriously is is very true, no matter how much we try to convince ourselves otherwise, I just paid. I’m not going to tell you how much but I just paid to sit down with a 19 year old for two hours to be taught everything about tick tock, because I’m 36. And I don’t consider myself like hip. I’m not with it. I have no idea how to do anything on tick tock or like, it’s just something I just never went down that rabbit hole.
And if you have a business, and I’m actually having a tick tock expert on the podcast, a tic toc expert for business, who shows businesses how to use it to come on and talk about it. But But I would have never just YouTube this stuff to find out about it, I have to pay somebody in order to sit down for those two hours to really take it seriously. Totally, because you’re at the point where you see the value. And what better way to take out that learning curve than to get someone that knows what they’re doing.
Dr. Marc Morris: In this case, it doesn’t matter if it’s a 19-year-old if the 19-year-olds the best one to do. It’s like yep, you’re the person. Let’s figure it out.
Steve Washuta: I prefer a 19-year-old when it comes to tick tock, I don’t want to I don’t want another 37 year old telling me what to do. Because I know that they know more.
Dr. Marc Morris: Exactly, exactly. Yeah, no. And I think there’s just wow, if I learned anything from not investing in some of these things earlier is that you just you end up, you just end up wasting so much time in that opportunity costing is not something you really truly realize until you’ve spent enough time in these areas to know that man, I wish I would have done this sooner.
Steve Washuta: Yeah, yeah, I couldn’t agree more. So there’s a few different areas, we can go here now that you if you’ve explained that sort of those stuff, I think what we’ll do is we’ll go more like the marketing side. First, I’ll ask you some of those questions. And then, and then we’ll then we’ll talk about the the more of the science based approach that you have, and maybe even your particular views on nutrition.
So first thought that comes to my mind is because we’re already talking about it, pricing, how do you set pricing? How do you tell other people to set pricing when you have young, let’s say people who graduate your program and go, Mark, I have no idea what I should be charging? How what’s the advice that you give them?
Dr. Marc Morris: Pricing? It’s just one of those things that’s like, so entirely subjective, but we still need some yardsticks to think about like, where do we start? What does this look like that type of thing. I always like using examples of like the the young coaches in my program are always so shocked to realize that there’s people out there charging $3,000 per month for a coaching program that probably looks not that much different than theirs in terms of the fulfillment, it’s like very much is very, very similar.
And the lesson there is that if you learn how to market yourself, you get the right people interested in the solution that you provide. And then from there, if you can take them down a process where you’ve convinced them that this is a solution from them, and work on your sales skills, people will pay, it doesn’t matter what they’ll pay, they’ll pay just about anything for an actual coaching service that helps solve a problem that they never been able to solve themselves. So like that is always the example that comes to my mind.
Because when people undervalue their services, it just doesn’t work out for anyone. It’s one of those things. So we kind of start with that lesson. It’s like, what do we charge? Probably more than you’re currently charging. But where do we come to that number? It looks a lot like number one, using things like how long is this? How much time are you going to spend doing this actual fulfillment with a person? What does the market kind of dictate for a beginner to intermediate level coach in a lot of these areas? That type of thing? And how much experience do you have and what it looks like is most intermediate coaches on a per monthly basis, not a package are typically charging between 125 and 175 per month for a nutrition service probably a little bit more, if they are packaging it with training or something like that, as you get more experience upwards of 200 to $300.03 to 500 plus for someone that has quite a bit of experience and is niched down in terms of specific pain points and has become the expert in a really specific area is kind of where things go.
Now. I think the biggest thing where people miss opportunity is that they hang out at certain price points for way too long. I think once you get some validation around, people are compensating and paying you for this. Once you get some people in you should be more open to price bumps sooner, so that you can make more money and start to prioritize your service. Right and that probably looks like you know, certainly reconsider bumping up is once you’ve got 1020 people through your coaching service and then continuing to kind of reassess things and what you’ll need to get to a certain point.
Steve Washuta: Yeah, that’s great information. I think what registered with me what stuck with me because I have this problem is, I forget that what I do is so easy for me that I can do it in my sleep, I can work virtually somebody can have a band and a five pound weight, and I can give them a better exercise regimen than the 95% of other trainers. Right? So because it’s so easy for me, because I’ve been doing it for so long. And it doesn’t take much effort on my end. I sometimes trying to price accordingly to that I have to convince myself No, no, I’m selling not only my time, but but my knowledge, my knowledge that I’ve accrued throughout the years. And and I have a hard time actually doing that myself.
Dr. Marc Morris: Totally. And I think even with with your experience, specifically being an expert in that area, you’re someone’s paying just as much for you tell them what not to do and what just to focus on right. And I think that’s what good, what good coaching and training and guidance is, is that like, no, specifically, this is what you need to do not the rest of this stuff, right? So it’s almost like seems super simple for you. But it’s like, no, this is what this person’s overlooked for the longest time is because they’ve been led astray, they haven’t been consistent, they haven’t focused on these things.
And this is literally all you need to do not everything you need to do. Yeah, I try to convince myself to sometimes because I it’s really hard for me. But to compare myself to like an athlete too. It’s like some of these athletes who are the best of the best, it’s very easy for them. That doesn’t mean they should be paid less, right? Like Steph Curry shouldn’t be paid less data three pointer, because he can hit a large percentage of three pointers. And I cannot write, he should be paid more, because he’s really good at that.
And I have to convince myself, just because the process is easy for me, because I have all the information in here doesn’t mean that I didn’t do a lot of work on that front end to acquire all that processes, which means that I should be charging more now. For sure, for sure. And thinking about that investment accrued over years, and what that looks like and kind of going from there. And I think that would be one of the biggest things, I think, honestly, not even just, we all know, beginning trainers and coaches that don’t have a problem with this in charge, what they’re probably worth, whereas I think sometimes it just becomes just as problematic when someone’s more experienced.
And they truly undervalue these things because people get into stuff, because they’re passionate about it. And it’s made a difference in their lives. And they almost feel bad about charging for it, right? It’s like one of those, like, who am I to do this, like, I’m supposed to be helping people, that type of stuff. And it’s just that mindset doesn’t help anyone, because people don’t take it seriously. You don’t, you don’t make enough money to truly prioritize it and get to the next level. And unfortunately, like money can be taboo in some situations. But it does help you create more impact. It does help you prioritize things, it does help you reinvest in your services. So we kind of got to think about it kind of take some of that. I don’t know, achy feeling away from it.
Steve Washuta: Yeah, and I would say again, this is far from my expertise. But if you just can’t do it, if it’s not for you, then find a way to have like a third party charging service where like, you don’t even talk about the finances, there’s just a number and somebody comes to you. And you’re like Sorry, like, you know, I mean, I work in concert with someone else, like the prices, the price, like I don’t talk about prices, if you can’t do the package, that’s fine. I’ll try to refer you to someone else. And if you can do the package, that’s the price and try to make try to make it separate from like, the actual work that you do. Completely, completely.
Dr. Marc Morris: Yeah, that’s a really good way of approaching that too. I mean, it’s a it’s a bit of a band aid, right? Because we’re not we’re not taking someone they know, to the next level. But same thing being like, my business coach will kill me. Like he’s gotten me to this point where, where, like, if I charge any less than this, and I make any like discount, or if I slashed my services, he’s gonna kill me. He could be fictional. But you guys stick to your guns because when people pay they pay attention, right?
Steve Washuta: Yeah. I mean, when I don’t want to go out on the weekends, I throw my wife under the bus. So you know what I really want to go out. I want to I want to see you guys for dinner. But, you know, my wife says we got to sit down with the baby and do whatever. So I take that methodology. I just throw other people under the bus.
Dr. Marc Morris: Man, they’re just they’re just it’s just, it’s just yeah, it’s strategies stretch. That’s my strategy. We’ll see when it backfires. But as far as the let’s skip the social media marketing, I already talked about how I’m the worst tic tock person of all time, I’m learning what are a few key let’s start with mistakes. What are a few key mistakes that people make when using social media marketing as a nutritional expert counselor coach, as someone that is completely science-minded, and I found marketing my services, probably the number one being something I didn’t understand it all I knew was a thing.
And number two, something that took forever to figure out it’s one of those things where your social media marketing in general, it’s just inspiring people to take action and that next step your social media and creating content and talking about your services should really just inspire people to take the next step, not educating them on the ins and outs of the process. Like there’s probably room for to talk about what you’re actually going to do, but that should be a conversation, not just, you know, shouting it out to the masses, because it’s not like you’re giving anything away when you do that.
Because it’s all out there, all the informations out there, there’s more content around what people need to do and how things work than ever before. But at best, you give them an idea that they can do it themselves. And typically what happens, you just confuse them in terms of what their options are, and taking the next step. So I think the biggest misconception is using social media, just to attract the right people, get their interest, captivate them, and let them know what the next step is, for this coaching service, or for the problem you’re going to solve or whatever it is, and then going down that path.
And I think that’s probably like a bit more direct marketing. But I think that’s one of the things that people lack. There’s time to educate people, but social media is they’re not, it’s not an educational platform. And I think that’s where a lot of people that have been this for a while with established businesses are always like, provide more value, educate people provide more value, and it’s like, that’s not going to work for someone that’s just starting out.
Steve Washuta: That’s it. That’s really interesting. Take I’m glad you said that, because I, I can see that I can, I can see that. And that’s, that’s something I’ve always struggled with, because I can do the long form educational thing, I’ve had a successful course I’ve had a successful book, I can do the podcast thing. But the tidbits of quick hits just to get people to bite it are difficult for people who want to just educate and talk and you have to convince yourself, look what’s working, right, look at the trends. The trends are not people who are educating the trends or people who are just doing something quick, saying something funny, you do a good job actually mark of involving humor, inside of let’s say, current trends, or current topics and conversations just to get people to sort of bite. And then once you’ve you know, real deficient, then you can go through the next steps of the process.
Dr. Marc Morris: completely. And I think your like, a good example is like your, your book and your service and all those things, that’s the opportunity to educate people, right, we don’t need to do as much of that on the front end. And that’s not to say that you shouldn’t educate people and tell them what you know, and that type of thing. But it’s just in most cases, we need a mix of what we’re going to do to captivate people. So they take the next step. So in reality, in most cases, people just need to make more offers. If you’re this type of person, you’re suffering with this, you’d like to accomplish this. Here’s what I got for you. Here’s the next step, that type of thing.
Steve Washuta: Most people have talked about in this domain, and I think I would concur. So I’m just throwing it to you. It doesn’t matter if you disagree or not just want your thoughts on this, because you’re good at it. Yeah. Should you have just a small, I would say presence on all of the platforms, but then really focus on one so that you have a better let’s say, you know, expertise in said platform, or what is the process of building up? Because now you have honestly you have LinkedIn, tick tock, Instagram, Facebook, I mean, I can keep going. So it’s like, Okay, which one? Do I pay more attention to? Or do I have to spend spread my time out equally amongst all of these things?
Dr. Marc Morris: That’s a really good question. I think if you’re starting out, you should definitely master one platform, because there’s similarities in terms of like marketing principles in stuff that is, you know, ubiquitous throughout all of them. But generally, like, there’s things that change and that type of stuff. I would get good on one platform first, and then and then go from there. I’ve gotten to the point where, yeah, like, personally, I’m spreading content out over different things.
But also, I mean, one of the best things you do can get to the next level in your coaching business is niched down and get more specific, I think the best thing you can do is think about where are the people I’m trying to reach? Like, where are they hanging out? Right? Like if you’re, if you’re, you know, if you’re like a really good example, one of my coaches right now is helping specifically she’s a visual artist by trade, a graphic artist, classically trained, became a personal trainer.
Now moving into the online space and focuses specifically on helping other visual artists, they have common problems, right, in terms of like, they’re sitting all day, they have deadlines, they don’t prioritize their health, their health, they stay up all night. They have terrible eating habits, like all of these things, they have specific pain to them in terms of like, you know, like a carpal tunnel, they learn to draw with the other hand, it’s crazy. It’s like it’s crazy.
Steve Washuta: I would even add one more thing. creative types are not the types we’ve been playing sports their entire lives, so they don’t have that background like you and I would have even like baseline knowledge of fitness
Dr. Marc Morris: completely. So yeah, no, entirely. So where does she find out where like, where these people are hanging out like something like Twitch? Right, like she streams, her doing arts talking about these things, intertwining it into that kind of stuff, like that’s a really good platform for her so thinking about getting good on one and maybe having a presence on a few but spending the majority your time getting good on one and then kind of going from there because if you’re working with busy professionals, like go on LinkedIn like you can Spread your content out there and get really good on that platform.
And the things that work on LinkedIn are not the same things that work on Instagram, things that work on Facebook right now, like, it’s, it’s completely different than what it is on Instagram, like, especially in terms of like calls to action in the mechanics of getting people engaging, it’s like entirely different. So like, the best way to get some traction is to get bid on one.
Steve Washuta: Yeah, I agree completely. And that’s what that’s most people’s answers. When I asked that question who are good at what they do like you do it in and around that realm, I will say, I do think it’s important to have, even if it’s just a small presence on almost all the major platforms, because what happens is sometimes somebody uses one platform more than the other.
Let’s go ahead and say Steve uses LinkedIn all the time. And I look for Mark, and Mark doesn’t exist on LinkedIn that I never find you. So at least if you have like a small presence, but all of those links, no pun intended links on LinkedIn, or directly your link to like, let’s say Instagram, where Mark has 15,000 followers, right? So I think I think that is it, that’s the start of building it. Because you don’t want to be only on one or two instead of five, because you could lose people searching for you.
Dr. Marc Morris: Completely, completely. No, I couldn’t agree more actually, in kind of a similar vein vein, but a bit different. This is the one of the reasons why you should be active on social media in general, because a lot of our businesses are without a doubt, still referral businesses. And even if you’re doing the organic, social media thing, trying to attract people, people that are referrals are still going to vet you on social media, and look, if you’re active, are you still doing this? Are you? Are you like, are you doing these things? They’re gonna do it and you actually miss? Because you’re thinking, Oh, my clients and referrals, I don’t need to do this. You’re missing all the people that searched you out, based on referral, didn’t find anything and never followed up? Because you weren’t. You weren’t active, you weren’t real?
Steve Washuta: Totally. Yeah. And I’ve I’ve done it myself, I probably done it this week, searching for someone. And in some respect, whether it was a potential podcast guest or somebody else. And in one area, they just come up dry, or they haven’t posted since 2020. And you’re like, they’re probably not doing this anymore. Well, maybe they just stopped posting on that platform. 2020. But, but that hurts them. So that’s, that’s why you have to keep keep it up. It’s just, it’s just part of the deal. I don’t like it, I don’t like to do it. But that’s how that’s how to be successful in this day and age
Dr. Marc Morris: completely. Like you have to document what’s going on, I would be I would also completely agree with you. If I could, like live in the woods and not do any of this stuff. I probably wouldn’t. But this is the this is what it entails.
Steve Washuta: So let’s go over some of the science now. What does Dr. Mark believe from again, a macro perspective about nutrition? Do you have, like, you know, dyed in the wool beliefs about something? Or do you just looking at each individual client and writing sort of exercise and diet prescriptions based upon whatever they have going on?
Dr. Marc Morris: I think it’s really important, like what I’ve realized through training a bunch of coaches is that, although what the individual needs is going to be different from person to person, we got to approach this the same way because that’s the best way for us to become an expert, stick to our guns learn what how to approach the situation. So for me, and what we teach is like a basic assessment model around, let’s get some objective information around what someone’s eating.
So something tracking bass, like we got to have some objective information. Because if we’re not, we’re just kind of more or less playing blind darts around what someone’s doing. Getting some objective information, seeing what’s holding them back. There’s some major trends around like weight loss and muscle gain, right in terms of obviously, energy intake is a main driver of a lot of these things. So getting a better sense of what someone’s eating, what is that made up of what is holding them back, and setting some structure around that so that they can reach their goals will be the biggest thing.
So flexible dieting, like we have to have an objective component, getting people tracking, that’s one of the best ways for our clients to be more mindful of their choices to be more aware to become more educated, that type of stuff is get into the nitty gritty of what they’re eating on an objective level. A lot of people will say, Well, you need a PhD to track your nutrition all there’s like all these inaccuracies, and you got to get better. It’s like I think you need a PhD not to track your nutrition, I think you should get a better sense of what you’re eating and what it looks like.
It doesn’t need to be perfect, so objective. But within that, I think the art of coaching and what one of the biggest nutrition certifications focuses on is a lot of this habit based stuff that allows you to fill the structure that allows you to adhere to certain things that allows you to take action to actually do the things you need to do so I think we like to call it structure and habits so it’s like some objective components in terms of calories, macronutrients, hydration, fiber intake, all the things that allow people to reach their goals and what the textbook says in terms of evidence based practice, but now also giving them the skills and helping them and holding them accountable to building habits to filling that structure.
And we need both in if you focus on just one, you are kind of playing blind darts around, yeah, maybe this feels good. And maybe it is a little less invasive. But it doesn’t really set up people to get results. And if you focus just on this, they don’t have a true understanding of what’s changed and don’t have long-lasting habits that allow them to, you know, carry on with the rest of their life.
Steve Washuta: Yeah, that makes perfect sense. And that seems like a great way to approach it. But I’m going to give you a difficult scenario now. Okay, so I’m a client. And I come to you and say, Hey, Mark, I want to work with you. But caveat here, I am on X diet, and I want to stick on X diet and just you to tweak it, would you go ahead and do that and work with them. If they if they’re on a particular diet type. Let’s say they’re on the keto diet, or they’re on some sort of, you know, whatever, like low fat diet, whatever, whatever they say that they’re on, will you work with them? Will you say, Hey, listen, you have to forget all that stuff. And we have to start a new?
Dr. Marc Morris: No, I definitely like in terms of dietary preferences and stuff. People can eat differently, like most fad diets will focus on one specific macronutrient and demonize another or specific type of food. There’s still scientific principles in play. And even if it isn’t, quote, unquote, how I would approach my diet, there’s still things that we can tweak within what we know, be it keto, making sure that there’s enough protein around even if there’s very low carb and higher fat, so people are still in a calorie deficit, if they’re looking to get leaner, or that kind of thing. So it’s still just using those principles.
But I think we still need an objective component. And we still need to, you know, go about it this way. I personally, in my own practice, and this is what I teach, I would, in most cases, would take a harm reductionist standpoint, which is, someone likes it, it’s working for them, there’s probably some small tweaks, the best way for them to trust me get a better sense of what is best for them is that I, I take them under my wing, get a better sense of applying some of the science to this stuff, get some results.
And then through this process, they realize it, maybe it could eat more carbs, maybe this wasn’t the end all be all that type of thing. It’s the same thing with weight cutting for the longest time. If you follow any powerlifting based stuff, everyone is screaming, don’t cut, wait for your first powerlifting meet, don’t do this, don’t do that. It’s like the person that is thinking about cutting weight for the first powerlifting meet is doing it with or without you.
Newsflash, you saying, you know, you got to be in this for eight years and be competitive. And then maybe you can consider cutting weights like they’re doing it with or without you. I’d rather put some principles in place that’ll make them the most, you know, protect their performance and do well at the beginning and learn through this process. That’s how people stick around. That’s how people make the, you know, take the next step. So that’s kind of my take on those things.
Steve Washuta: Yeah, I mean, I think that’s the way to go about it. I think finding out what people are good at and bad at and what they like and what they dislike, and then developing programs around that is is the way forward because you can’t get around it right? Well, there’s people who say, Hey, I absolutely have to have something to eat at night. Like I just I’m starving at night. My wife eats at night. I just I have to have something to eat at night.
Well, I mean, we don’t have to tell them not to eat at night, we can just give them healthier options, as opposed to what they’re eating. If they’re like, I need something that’s sugar based at night, I feel like I need a sweet. You know, again, this isn’t my expertise, but it’s like, okay, well, there’s 100 calorie. Yeah, so bars that are that are made from, you know, Greek yogurt, right, that’s better than eating the pint of ice cream. And there’s just there’s other alternatives that we can give you to change what you’re doing completely. And I think one thing that’s probably important to note here is that what we do in our approach, and how we coach people can also be different in the way that how we describe our services and market them,
Dr. Marc Morris: I still think there’s probably room for you to be a bit more specific around how you do things, and what’s gonna work best in that type of stuff on the front end, and let people decide if it is for them. Because what’s really interesting about it, the more specific you get, if I’m like, if I talk about only working with busy female professional accountants, and talk about their pains, and struggles, like there might be some boxes that we create, that Steve fits in is like, I’m not a busy female working professional.
But Mark, I still think you’re the person to help me like, is this gonna work for me? And it’s like, Absolutely, it doesn’t mean that I can’t work with you. It just means that if I was never specific in creating that dialogue and story in boxes at the beginning, you would have never thought about is this for you? Right? And it’s the same thing with some of our approaches. It’s like, get specific, but then on the back end work with the individual in terms of the best fit and what’s going to set them up for success.
Steve Washuta: I talk about that in fitness all the time. It’s actually something I talked about in my book where you know, you want to have a specialty also so you can charge more. So maybe you run martial arts gym, and you teach general martial arts throughout the day. You teach kids you teach adults you do whatever, but you’re an absolute expert in whatever you know more than Tai. So for your more type classes, you upcharge, and you only take five people, instead of taking 10 or 15 people, right.
And that’s no different in fitness, right? Maybe you’re the kettlebell guy that you clean yourself off as so your general personal trainer throughout the day, but at night, you do a specialty kettlebell class where you’re charging just as much as personal training, but you have four people in that class, you’re making four times the amount for that hour, because you coins yourself off as that specialist. So you want to have the skill set to work in general settings. But you also have to have some sort of niche and you can upcharge
Dr. Marc Morris: completely completely. And I think I think people forget, even some of the biggest players in this stuff got really specific first, right? Like, it’s one of those things where if you’ve built your entire career off glutes, if someone comes to you right now and says, you know, I’m not really sure my glutes do any work, you still work with them, but they know you because you’re the person that has a solution for them.
Steve Washuta: So something going on in the industry, Mark. Now, on your side, the nutrition side that you see all the time, whether it’s a trend in the marketing side, whether it’s a trend in the actual scientific information being spread that you think is false or misguided, and you would just like to sort of clear up?
Dr. Marc Morris: Well, that’s a really good question. I think I, I was thinking about this earlier, and I think I had a bunch of ideas come to mind. But I think from the marketing side of things, and something that we touched upon, and I just want to reiterate it, because I think it’s really, really important is that like this whole, provide more value, teach everyone everything we know and therefore they’re going to come to us as the solution just needs to stop.
Like it’s not the right approach for the majority of new coaches. They need to make more offers and put themselves out there and it might feel a little salesy at first, but if you truly have a life changing service, like you are not doing your any self, you’re not doing yourself any favors by not promoting it and talking about it and like no one wants to go down as the best coach that no one’s ever heard about. So I think the biggest thing being let’s get over this whole sales thing and get over this hole, putting ourselves out there and being like salesy, obviously there’s more authentic ways to do it. But I think the biggest trend being provide more value and just teach everything everyone like everyone, everything you know, is just not doing anyone any favors.
Steve Washuta: Yeah, I’m with you. I wish it was I wish that was the way I’m better at that. But people take a long time to cling to the long form. They’re gonna cling to the short form quicker we see there’s a reason why tick tock is there’s more people on tick tock than LinkedIn or more people on tick tock, and then listening to my podcast. Because yeah, that’s that’s just, that’s how people digest information now, and, but But again, I think there’s a and this, this is not my specialty anymore, but there’s a lead in process, like you talked about, maybe they see the video on Tik Tok, and they like and subscribe, and then they see another information, then they go to your Instagram. And then from your Instagram, they end up clicking on your your link, and they end up joining your course. Right? It’s just, it’s just, you’re just funneling them more or less
Dr. Marc Morris: completely. And I wish there was a more clear, I’m very analytical, I wish I could tell you the exact timeframe that takes but we’re very much we are farmers, we’re not hunters, like there’s a process that like you got to plant the seed, you got to nurture that stuff. That doesn’t mean making more offers means that when someone starts following you, you DM them right away and say like, Hey, let’s, let’s jump on a call and get you signed up for coaching.
What it means is, though, like you give them the opportunity more frequently to work with you. And if you don’t do that, then it’s never going to happen. But there’s a process that takes like, people are gonna need to see you multiple times and consider it. But if you don’t give them the opportunity to take the next step, it’s not going to happen.
Steve Washuta: Yeah, I couldn’t agree more on and I just want to reiterate something else we both talked about before, too, when you’re going through this process, really analyze what you’re good at what you’re not good at, in that space, because there are some people who are just not going to be able to do certain things. It’s a little, it’s probably a little bit different in nutrition, but in the fitness world.
You know, you might love you think you might love one thing over another. But if you but if you’re not good at it, you’re not going to be making money in that area. So you really have to second guess and say like, is this the space for me, like people, I know, the girls who I work with, who loved bar class, it was her favorite thing to do. But in bar, there’s a lot of cueing and a lot of instruction. And she was shy and she just wasn’t really good at that part.
But she was really good with the body she understood the body, the muscles that were working, I said well, then your your best bet is to you know, whatever, start making videos, where you can edit them and cut them out and you’re not in front of people in the middle of a class and you’re describing all the muscles that are being engaged while you’re working through barre class use use your skill set to your advantage don’t work against yourself.
Dr. Marc Morris: Completely. No that that makes that makes a lot of sense. I think a lot times we probably just like force ourselves into situations and try to make it work but a reality shouldn’t but just figuring out quicker. What’s what and where to go from there. It would be the would be one of the best approaches.
Steve Washuta: One question here and you can say pass if you don’t want to answer it. What is your thoughts on intuitive eating? I know this has been a big thing. I did a sort of a podcast I did a podcast started with a lady who is, you know, sort of pro intuitive eating? I guess? I’m skeptical to say the least I’m not really sure. Again, it’s not my area of expertise. But what are your your general thoughts on intuitive eating?
Dr. Marc Morris: Well, there’s, first of all, there’s tons of confusion around this area, intuitive eating was never was not created as a way to control our body weight or influence any of that stuff. And my take on it is, there’s going to be some people that I experienced in my practice, that don’t want to do a predominantly tracking based approach or more objective, or maybe they don’t have anything that is a body comp goal, that type of thing, like a lot of these practices are a better bet for them, it gets a better thing. But in terms of just I think there’s this misconception that in intuitive eating, you just eat whatever you want, based on your body and your cues and all that stuff. And it’s like, it’s not, it’s, it’s not about that at all. And actually, it’s, I think, a lot of a lot of ways.
There are some good scientific principles to it. And there’s a lot of stuff that maybe is influenced as kind of backlash to the current state of dieting in nonsense. So number one, it was never meant to be something that controls our body weight. So trying to use it as a tool for that is confusing and not effective and doesn’t even make sense. And the creators of this type of thing would be the first to tell you about that. But I think the biggest thing, giving people more options around how they approach what they eat, and what works for them is absolutely the best. And that doesn’t, that means that I’m happy to refer people where I hear certain things about what they’re struggling with and what they benefit from, to them to someone who is an expert in that area.
Right. And I do hope this isn’t always the case, given the current state of our industry, I would hope that would also go in the opposite direction in terms of you know, someone that needs a more objective approach in some of these things that isn’t necessarily has no issues with the objective components or you know, current issues or issues with disordered eating or anything like that, I hoped it would go in the other direction as well. But I think the biggest thing being it wasn’t meant to I think you started seeing people jump on the bandwagon around. It being, you know, a solution for fat loss or weight loss or what we should be focusing on.
But if you look at the spectrum of things, I think there’s probably something in between there, which would be more mindful eating practices, based on hunger cues and stuff that might not be as objective that is really in reality, where we’re trying to get most people to anyway, is that like, maybe we don’t need to be tracking all the time, because you’ve built up the right habits, and awareness and strategies around food.
So that you know, you can be more mindful me specifically, I don’t track what I eat anymore. But I can tell you pretty much how I feel, what my habits are, what that looks like and what I need at specific meals to keep things in check that kind of thing. The first thing I do if I have something specific I’m I’m looking to accomplish, though, which would be get back to the objective parameters of nutrition and that type of thing. So does that answer your question
Steve Washuta: that totally answers my question. And actually, the very last sentence, you said, really answered my question in insofar as I feel the same way, I don’t track what I eat, because I have for a long period of time, so I understand my body. And I have a relative idea at all times subconsciously, of not only what I’ve been eating and what I’m eating, but like the caloric amount, again, subconsciously, I’ve been thinking about it, but I just know, because I used to do it for so long.
But I think that my issue with the intuitive eating number one is like you said, the, the the definition and the name sounds odd because everyone says, well, it’s not exactly just eat whatever you want, I’m like, well, then, then they need to change the name. Because Intuitive Eating does actually mean that if you break down the definition of intuitive and eating, but secondary secondarily, it’s that I think some people are naive to think that everyone has a really good idea of what’s good and what’s bad.
So mark it intuitively because of his expertise. But if I’m just, let’s say, a poor, rural, 16 year old, and I don’t have an education yet on what’s going on, and what works in my body, and what’s not, Intuitive Eating is probably not the best thing for this person, because they don’t even understand the simple concepts of food yet.
Dr. Marc Morris: Totally. No, I completely agree. And I think there’s been a lot of backlash in terms of like, I think, if we think about all this stuff on a spectrum, in terms of like, kind of wacky dieting practices and stuff that’s overly restrictive, and who that you know, who that attracts in terms of really strong ideology around like personal responsibility and stuff, we almost have the exact opposite end of the spectrum, right. And, like, it’s weird, like, sometimes we have a spectrum, the stuff kind of comes full circle, sometimes around, like some of the viewpoints around how people approach these things, and like, socially, politically, and all that stuff, so it’s like, I think what it’s done is got people to take a step back and think about, you know, what are some of the pros and cons of all of these things and drawbacks and who’s it for and that type of stuff, which I think has been important, but just like anything else, there’s cons and disadvantages and that type of stuff with both tracking based approach and that kind of stuff. It’s just it’s an interesting for sure. Um, and I like to stay out of it, because arguing about it has done anyone like no favors at all,
Steve Washuta: you know, I’ve never thought about it that way. And the second you said it, all of these people who are on each side of those spectrums came rushing to my head. And I said that it really is almost like, like a political ideology battle thing where one side has gone so far to say we have to track every single thing and you’re only allowed to eat meat. And the other side says, Actually, not only can you not only have to eat meat, or vegetables, you can eat anything you want at any time and never worry about it ever, right? So like, you have these two diametrically opposed views, and some of them are because they’re trying to oppose the other person. So you have someone like the liver King, who says, I don’t even eat meat, I just eat organs of animals, which, if anybody knows this guy, he is on at least 800 milligrams of testosterone a week and probably DECA and a few others. And he’s he’s a complete it’s complete nonsense, right? Like he’s loaded with steroids. And, and then you have other people who said, I eat whatever I want at any given time. And like you said, it’s eventually hope we all find our way back to back to the middle and worry about totally, what’s the term that you and Danny Lennon both uses? You said earlier on in the podcast that evades me now, but nutrition based evidence based nutrition, which I think is really what we need to come to,
Dr. Marc Morris: yeah, no, completely. And I think there’s room like, the weird thing about those like, you know, diametrically opposing opinions is that like, the middle serves to disappear. Like it’s like it, we sometimes the pendulum swings, and it swings too far. And maybe it’ll correct itself. But go as we stretch on either side, it’s like, Man, this isn’t helping anything. If anything, it’s making it a bit more, a bit more confusing. But I think overall, it’s been a good thing. And I’m happy that people have options, and I’m happy that people will have different ways of approaching things. I just hope that it goes like in both ways, in terms of strategies and things that could be meaningful, impactful for different people.
Steve Washuta: I’m doing a podcast with an RD coming up basically, about vanity and health. And for me, it’s it’s a interesting thing, because I don’t have any like sort of vanity, I don’t know what you want to call this, like, psychosis issues, right? Like, I’ve never been worried, necessarily overly worried about what I look like. So I can’t put myself in that person’s perspective. But because I’ve worked with seniors, as the majority of my population, I am deathly worried about how I will feel. So I’m so concerned with being injured, that I do everything to avoid being injured. And I’m very hypersensitive about that.
And my training regiments are and how I work with my clients are for me, and that’s a big thing that I promote is training for your older age, much like you’d save money for retirement, you have to save your body and trained for so that you’re not injured into old age. And I think that, you know, training has gotten into be such vanity based. Do you find that in what you’re doing? I know vanity is a good what I would call like, it opens the door. Right? It’s it leads people into nutrition and health. But do you find that it’s the only reason? Are people only coming to nutritional counselors because they want and coaches because they want to look better? Or is there more of a health component here, too.
Dr. Marc Morris: There’s definitely more of a health component. I think what we’re facing in that example, specifically is that like, there still is a marketing problem. And I think a lot of times people will invest in these services, learn more and investigate them, because they have maybe a more aesthetic reason to do it. But what they find through the process is that there’s a lot more to this.
And there’s different phases, and there’s different things to focus on and what what I thought would be ideal isn’t actually the case, but we can’t reach them. And we can’t get them to that point. If we don’t ultimately give them what they want at first in terms of marketing and getting them in the door. And then ultimately, you know, delivering on what they need. So if that makes any sense, but I think it does open the door like for sure.
Vanity stuff. And I think I think to be naive and think that I think the tide is changing a little bit in terms of people are looking at this stuff in terms of overall health and how they feel and it not just being aesthetic and vanity related. But there’s always gonna be some overlap. And I think we’d be you know, naive to think that that isn’t the case, because there is definitely something in the middle where it’s like, you might feel a little bit better if some certain things are taken care of or moving in the right direction. But it can’t just be based on that because when it is just based on that we’ve seen the backlash, and I think if anything, it’s made things worse, right?
Steve Washuta: Yeah, if you’re willing, if that’s your number one goal and you’re willing to do anything you can to look a certain way. Well then your number two goal could be Push down, which would be health, right? So I’m willing to take XYZ supplement, although I know things are going wrong in my body by taking this or I’m willing to eat certain things or, or let’s like lose sleep over doing XYZ, whatever the things I am doing, because I know it’s going to help my vanity.
If I if that’s the number one goal over health, and they’re not sided by side working in concert, like you talked about, right? Like, okay, what gets me through the door is I know that I can look better. But once I find out that the health components are great, all my decisions need to be based off of is this also making me healthier? And looking better? Because if it’s only doing looking better than I have to say, No, I can’t do that.
Dr. Marc Morris: I think in the best way to have that conversation and make those decisions is under the guidance of someone that can be objective about it, right. And that’s why coaching is so important, is like people have paralysis that they have to make that decision themselves, right. But when they have someone to guide that process and take them through it, it just makes it so much easier. And they ultimately get to a place where they have the best of both worlds or what matters to them could look a little bit differently.
Steve Washuta: Where’s the best place to find everything Dr. Mark? And actually, why don’t you give me two avenues here, general population, people who might be interested in nutrition programs. And then let’s say personal trainers who might be interested in learning the Dr. Mark way, and maybe they even have specific questions for you concerning marketing and how you do things.
Dr. Marc Morris: Yeah, great. No, the best I’m most active on Instagram. And that’s probably where you can find the majority of my nutrition coaching-focused work. I post like three times a day I’m definitely active on there, feel free to DM me and we can chat about where you’re at and how I could potentially help. And then the if anyone is looking for a nutrition coaching specifically as an individual and maybe have a weight loss goal or you know, performance-based goal. WW Dr. Holly health.ca would be the one-on-one coaching arm of our business.
Steve Washuta: My guest today has been Dr. Marc Morris’s smart. Thank you for your time.
Dr. Marc Morris: Thanks so much for having me on.
Steve Washuta: Thanks for joining us on the Trulyfit podcast. Please subscribe, rate, and review on your listening platform. Feel free to email us as we’d love to hear from you.
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