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Pelvic Floor Physical Therapist Tips – Hayley Kava

Guest: Hayley Kava

Podcast Release Date: 9/19/2021

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Steve Washuta: Welcome to the Trulyfit podcast. I’m your host Steve Washuta, co-founder of Trulyfit and the author of the book Fitness Business 101. On today’s podcast, I speak with Hayley Kava. Haley is a pelvic floor physical therapist. She also has a podcast called the Don’t beat around the bush Podcast, where her co-host Addy has real honest, uncensored conversations about all things pelvic health, nothing is off-limits. It’s a fantastic podcast, very funny. Again, certainly not PG, but it’s very informational as well.

The reason why Haley can have this podcast is that again, she is a pelvic floor physical therapist, and I talked to her about how exactly you call yourself and what is the educational route to becoming this. We talked about the muscles and the regions that constitute the pelvic floor Exactly. common issues involving pregnancy.

What are some common issues in the pelvic floor that don’t involve pregnancy, what are some major misconceptions about the region in general, or what is something that she wishes every personal trainer would know concerning the pelvic floor that we can better serve our clients with? And just some exercises and tips and cueing that she passes on?

It is a fantastic conversation, obviously, a very important topic and not something that personal trainers are always very in tune with at least in an in-depth manner. So with no further ado, here is Haley. Haley, thanks for joining the Trulyfit podcast. Why don’t you give the audience in listeners a background on what exactly it is that you do in the health industry?

Hayley Kava: Yes, I’m Hayley Kava. I am a pelvic floor physical therapist. And I work primarily with females, vulva owners, if you will, and working with pregnancy Partum, pelvic pain, and then just sort of chronic pain in general, I own Hayley Kava PT. And I also have a podcast called the Don’t beat around the bush podcast where again, I talk about all things taboo in public health.

Steve Washuta: What are the muscles and the in the region that constitute the pelvic floor. Obviously, trainers are familiar with some of those muscles, but we don’t know sort of where it stops and where it ends as far as in your, in your world.

Hayley Kava: Yeah, so so when we get really into the nitty-gritty of the pelvic floor muscles, we have three main layers of the pelvic floor. So we have our superficial pelvic floor muscles, which so we have that’s kind of our last stop on controlling our pee and controlling our poop and, and sexual function.

Then we have a middle layer of pelvic floor muscles, which are the public pelvic floor muscles we think of most often when we think about he’ll say, so that’s our elevator eight nine group. And that’s really there’s, it’s made up of three muscles that go stretch from the pubic bone in the front to the tailbone in the back, and from the seat belt on each side of the pelvis, as well. So it makes the sort of like a basket or a bowl.

Then we have our sorry, then between those two layers, there’s a middle layer of pelvic floor muscles that really doesn’t get talked about very much at all, but they’re supportive and females actually have an extra muscle in there that males do not have which is kind of cool. And then we also have the muscles of the pelvic wall and the muscles of the pelvic wall often tend to give us a lot of grief, because they try to take over a lot of times when our true pelvic floor muscles that trula Vader, he and I group is not functioning optimally.

So these muscles are arbitrator internists, which you don’t hear about that much in our piriformis what you hear about all the time. And so when we’re talking about lower back pain or pain, the pelvis or pain in the hip, you know, our sciatica right, which we hear about all the time, we get a lot of people to know to maybe stretch their piriformis but a lot of times low back pain and pelvic floor dysfunction are linked.

The statistics are pretty insane. I think it’s like 75% of people with low back pain have pelvic floor dysfunction. And so that’s that accessory muscles to the pelvic floor. So the obturator internus in the piriformis should always be considered when we’re talking about the pelvic floor as well. All of our other deep hip rotators run with our piriformis so our glute Meade, our glove bellies. My gosh, all those little tiny muscles that your glutes, your glute max your glute meet like all those other hip muscles.

They are really close to the pelvic floor, our hamstrings attach to the pelvis, our inner thighs attach to the pelvis or our abdominal muscles attach to the pelvis. And so we absolutely want to be thinking about all those muscles. And if those muscles have dysfunction, we want to baby also be thinking about the pelvic floor muscles.

Steve Washuta: Well, if anybody thought that you don’t need a pelvic floor specialist, there doesn’t need to be a specialist involving the pelvic floor, they now have been convinced otherwise. After that description of all of those muscles, many of which I’ve never heard of, and then many of which I didn’t know constituted, still, the pelvic floor isn’t, but it makes sense, obviously, right?

A lot of these muscles are interconnected and in the area, and obviously, muscles above and below affect the actions of muscles they attach to. So with that being said, What is the educational route to becoming a pelvic floor specialist?

Hayley Kava: Yeah, so so they’re specifically for physical therapists, we can take a couple different routes of learning. So Herman and Wallace is a continuing education company. And I believe the evidence in motion is coming up now with some more pelvic floor continuing in.

But basically, once you’re a physical therapist, there is no real specific rules on who can call themselves a pelvic floor physical therapist, or just a regular physical therapist, which is sometimes a bit of a problem.

But basically, in those pelvic floor-specific courses, you learn how to directly evaluate the pelvic floor muscle, finger to insert into the vaginal or rectal openings, and really evaluate how those muscles work. So it was a very kind of personal evaluation. And that we also, so that’s our sort of micro view of those muscles, as well as other continuing education courses.

So I studied postural restoration, which is, again, like a subspecialty of physical therapy, where we want to take that macro view of the whole body and how the relationship of the pelvic floor and the diaphragm and the rest of the body are influencing those pelvic floor muscles directly.

So so you would take the specific pelvic floor education that would allow you to be able to do an internal muscle evaluation. And then to me, that then designates you as a pelvic floor, physical therapist, there are all sorts of courses you can take as a coach or as a trainer, to become proficient and understanding the role of the pelvic floor and maybe the implications of pregnancy and postpartum have on the floor on the pelvic floor and the rest of the body.

And so there are plenty of pelvic floor specialists who don’t do internal evaluations. But personally, I think that if you’re going to sort of call yourself a pelvic floor physical therapist, you should be able to get in there and really see those muscles directly.

Steve Washuta: While staying on that topic. You just mentioned pregnancy, what are the most common issues involving pregnancy that you can pass on to personal trainers, I should say maybe postpartum that we should be aware of.

Hayley Kava: So specifically in postpartum? Yes. Yeah, so specifically in postpartum, the sort of hot button issues the issues you hear about all the time are going to be diocese’s recta stress urinary incontinence, maybe fecal incontinence and, and then pelvic organ prolapse.

And that would be like feeling heaviness or pressure in the pelvis, as well as low back pain, hip pain, pubic pain that maybe didn’t go away with the end of pregnancy, because a lot of women get told, oh, all of these issues that you have going on in pregnancy are just going to go away postpartum.

We also want to make sure we’re evaluating things like parrot perinatal injury, so if someone experienced a laceration of their premium during childbirth or if they experienced a C section looking at the healing of that incision, that scar and how that’s all healing and recovering. Yeah, I’m

Steve Washuta: dealing with that now. My wife is six weeks exactly today. Post c section with our first and she’ll be going to the doctor’s tomorrow to you know, look at the scar and all of that but she still has a few she healed up very quickly but a few minor issues.

Like you know, she feels as if she doesn’t know that her bladder is full when it is full. Yeah. things, things of that nature. And obviously, you know, everyone has their own individual problems, and that was specifically a, you gave some great elaborations and issues with postpartum. Are there any things that people should be concerned with? during pregnancy? Or, as opposed to post-pregnancy?

Hayley Kava: Um, yeah, I think, I think, again, it’s the more comfortable you can be, the better your mobility, the more aware you are of your pelvic floor. A lot of times, the easier that that transition into postpartum is because it’s a pretty intense shift. And but unfortunately, what tends to happen a lot is women get told, oh, pregnancy is just uncomfortable.

Deal with it, or Oh, you’re, you’re leaking when you sneeze, or you’re having to pee all the time? Oh, well, that should get better once the baby comes. And unfortunately, that’s not, that’s not true. And we, we know, in orthopedic, we’re the orthopedic world, you know, you wouldn’t send somebody into ACL surgery without doing prehab. Right.

And so same thing with after birth, whether it’s the C section, whether it’s vaginal birth, we want to give people the tools to know how to start to approach their rehabilitation before and as well as what to do, right, right from day zero, post-op or post-birth. Because that’s really, that’s really important.

Steve Washuta: Yeah, and to just speak to that we had Nikki Bergen on of the bell method, and she was talking about how a lot of people who were, you know, really big into fitness, find it difficult to just do small things.

Whereas in you know, they’re used to doing these very difficult workouts, and then they sort of getting held up. But it is important that when we’re working with our clients as personal trainers, we start them off very light.

So if it’s just small things like doing bridges in bed, or obviously key goals or leg lifts, or just you know, rolling out of bed by using their abs and, and things of that nature, where we start them off very slowly, but we still give them a regimen to do of exercises when they’re coming out of pregnancy.

Hayley Kava: Yeah, exactly. We don’t want this sort of concept of you giving birth do nothing for six weeks, and then six weeks is this magical date that everything is going to be better and you can go back to what you want to do is insane. If you do nothing, and you lay in bed and do no muscle activation, you know, just bedrest, your muscle mass globally in your whole body decreases. I think it’s 3% today.

Even a healthy person, we take someone who did not have a baby, you know, normal, healthy, even male. They lay in bed for six weeks, it’s actually going to be a process a rehabilitation process to get them back to where they want to be or maybe where they were before that started.

We have to have similar Yes, slow return postpartum, but also maybe not have it be a complete bed rest situation. And so those movements that support healing, in the early postpartum, like, yeah, breathing, connecting to your breath connecting to your pelvic floor. Yeah, supporting scar recovery, all of those types of things are really important.

Steve Washuta: Yeah. And to speak to something you said earlier about any orthopedics out there. They have a regimen for pre-op, right? Well, in post-op. Yeah. Now nowadays, you have a bilateral hip replacement. Well, guess what, that in two hours after the surgery, you’re only walking? So yes, it’s kind of no different.

As far so far as pregnancy, it essentially is surgery, even if it’s not, right. It’s what whether you’re having it vaginally or C section, it is a traumatic experience where those muscles are being, you know, sort of traumatized in the same way they would be during surgery. And the last thing you want to do is just sit around for six weeks. I know that’s that seems like obviously, that’s this is going to lead into my next question.

That is the sometimes the recommendation of let’s say, like the OB or somebody but it seems though, at least in the people that I’ve talked to that it’s very difficult to get in to see somebody who does what you do unless there was a major issue, and I wrong on that.

And how does somebody circumvent that? If you know, let’s say my wife wanted to see a pelvic floor specialist via insurance, is there a way in which you can that you can easily do that? Or is it just like you have to have a major issue?

Hayley Kava: No, I think that is beginning to change. And I think what’s partially responsible for that is that women aren’t just going listening to their provider that says, Oh, yeah, do nothing and you’ll be fine or peeing your pants is normal.

They’re actually seeking more information. And so people influencers like Nikki, Nikki Bergen is huge for helping women realize that they can get more support in the absence of major issues. So you don’t have to have, you know, a fourth-degree tear all the way to, you know, from front all the way to the back.

In order to get physical therapy, it’s starting to become more the standard, the area that I just moved from there, one of the women’s health departments just got approved for two full-time pelvic floor pts. Every single postpartum cold patient will be seen pelvic floor PT now is the standard. I think that is hopefully the way that we will continue to go. in your state, depending on your state, physical therapists have direct access. And in Canada, physical therapists have direct access. So you actually don’t need permission from your doctor to go see a pelvic floor PT. Now I believe in Minnesota that I just moved to after 90 days of treatment, you may I get a double check on that. So different states will have different funny rules like that.

But most states have direct access. So you can actually go directly to your physical therapist, depending on your insurance. And that would be definitely something you’d want to check in with your insurance on. They may require a referral. But in general, I’m finding that most don’t require a referral for physical therapy, or you can do so many sessions before a referral is necessary. And so

Steve Washuta: I’m very glad to hear that that’s becoming the norm because it seems that it should be quite obvious after that sort of, you know, traumatic experience that one would see a specialist before they’re kind of released back into working out.

Hayley Kava: Yeah, I joke that you know, our diaphragm, our rib cage, our spine, or pelvis is like the chassis of the car, right. And so if you, you know, our arms and our legs are just the tires. And if you know you sprain your ankle that’s like you, you know, you need some rehabilitation, but that’s like just rehabilitating the tire.

It’s not really that essential, it’s essential, but not really, like, what happens to the midsection of our body that holds us up. We can’t ignore that because once the alignment of your car, the chassis of your car is kind of messed up, messed up, not the right term, but you know, it has experienced some changes that if it doesn’t get there the support that it needs, then it could be long term, long term problems.

Steve Washuta: Yeah, I had a double inguinal hernia surgery probably close to three years ago now. But you know, I still have no pain, but I still have you know, my, my adductors had atrophied during that time, and they’ve never quite built back up the same way no matter what I’ve done.

And I certainly still think they’re still, you know, post-op ramifications. I’m not 100% from that surgery. And again, that’s probably not as damaging as a very bad pregnancy of someone having twins or something, something of that nature. So,

Hayley Kava: yeah, could probably benefit from some pelvic floor PT.

Steve Washuta: Yeah, sounds like it. So we talked about some of these things, these sort of like misconceptions are there is there anything else like floating out there in the ag world or just kind of like old antiquated knowledge that people think is like the right thing to do, or something that is important, but the pelvic floor that’s not anything that you can think of?

Hayley Kava: Um, so obviously, you’re sort of classic, like, it’s normal to pee your pants, you know, it’s normal, to have pain with sex, you know, those kinds of things. I think those myths are becoming more and more dispelled, I think something that we battle in the physical therapy world in general, and maybe even more so in public health is this idea that being like an isolationist, in terms of how we treat people, so if you go to a pelvic floor physical therapist, and you lay on a towel and receive biofeedback, so you essentially have a probe inserted into your body and you lay there in two kilos.

That’s not pelvic floor physical therapy. Or you go to your doctor’s office and you pay $5,000 to sit on a chair, a kegler chair that uses electromagnetic forces to contract your pelvis. For, again, that’s not for physical therapy, and, you know, probably isn’t really going to give you the benefits that you need.

And that you can get from a comprehensive evaluation by a provider who’s taken more continuing education and taking more of these courses so that we can integrate the whole body and respect that the pelvic floor doesn’t work alone.

Steve Washuta: That’s great information, I think, you know, for the personal trainers to be able to know when their clients are coming back, post-pregnancy to be able to ask them, Hey, have you seen somebody? Have you seen a specialist? And for them to sort of respond with? Yes, I’ve seen a specialist and they tell them what they went through? And then we can say, Well, no, you thought you saw specialists? Yeah.

But you actually didn’t, because they weren’t looking at you individually, they were just throwing a generalized routine at you that they would have done to anybody. And, you know, if you’re having problems X, Y, and Z, we probably need you to go see a specialist before you start up back with us.

Hayley Kava: Absolutely. Absolutely. It’s, yeah, it’s more common than you think I, I see a lot of clients who come to see me, usually virtually who have been in pelvic floor PT for months and months.

What they’ve done in months and months at, you know, spending, you know, a lot of money is Yeah, essentially lay on a table. And again, with, say, ACL rehab, for example, we, you know, you, we know, that laying someone on the table, doing leg squeezes, just sort of squeezing your quad muscle isn’t going to make someone actually stronger. You know, it may be an important part of the rehabilitation process initially, but we know we have to get people off the table and load them and challenge them with resistance and dynamic movements.

And so the pelvic floor and the recovering postpartum body is are the same way. You know, wolf slog, you know, that our body responds to demands we put on it. And so, if, you know, motherhood, in general, the demands are much greater than just laying there.

Steve Washuta: Yeah, I mean, if you have to wake up every two and a half hours and a pick-six to 12-pound baby ups, and that’s Yeah, that’s already doing more than just laying in bed, obviously. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So what are some of the common issues that do not involve pregnancy? Maybe even something with a male?

Hayley Kava: Yeah, so. So the main, so if we kind of back up to the functions of the pelvic floor are its Spink terrick. Again, controlling pee, poop, farts, its support. Heaviness, so feeling prolapse, maybe hemorrhoids may be very costly. Sometimes pregnant women get varicose veins in their vulvas. It could be painful intercourse, or trouble with orgasm, or arousal or things like that. Could be cyclical pain in women.

So if they’re having painful, painful, extremely painful periods, sometimes that’s muscular. related. Again, pain in the pelvis, pelvic girdle pain. SI joint pain, low back pain, hip pain, and hurt hernias. inguinal, hernias, umbilical hernias, rib pain, thoracic pain. All of those things are so connected to the pelvic floor that we, they’re worthy of being addressed sometimes by a pelvic floor physical therapist,

Steve Washuta: We talk a lot about Pilates on this podcast, not on purpose. It’s just it just happens. Yeah, I have a background in it. And I’ve obviously interviewed a lot of people on here who have a background in it.

And you know, I’ll just add that. As far as exercise is concerned. It’s something you obviously can’t have our clients jump into when they’re pregnant. We’re not supposed to introduce new activities all the time. But it’s, it is great for them to do some version of this. Whether it’s for especially reformers, girls and guys. Because it just gives you a better sense of activating some of these muscles.

And I think if you know, personal trainers have a lot of, you know, with someone you just mentioned. Like, if there’s like six issues, the first thing we do is like, okay, we’re gonna stretch. Like, it’s always big muscles, right? It’s like, oh, we’re gonna stretch your hamstrings. We’re gonna stretch your quads out, we’re gonna make sure that everything is even on both sides.

It’s, you know, it’s like, well, a lot of times it’s the smaller muscles, right? It’s like, sort of like your global core. And I think, you know, it’s it. Part of it is just education. Having a little bit of background in these modalities. That focus on smaller muscles is going to help you see the bigger picture.

Hayley Kava: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I actually am, the new space that I’ll be working in is actually a Pilates studio. So I’m excited. I’m going to be learning a whole lot about Pilates coming up. I’ve never used a reformer. So it’s like a beautiful studio full of reformers. So I’m pumped.

Steve Washuta: Well, you have a distinct advantage, given your knowledge of the core and pelvis region. So I think you’ll, you’ll, you’ll do great. And it’s, it’s really fun. I think there’s, yeah, I teach plays on the reformer. I kind of do it my own way, a lot of classical Pilates. There’s a lot of cueing going on, it’s non-stop.

And it’s a lot of talking. And I like to let my clients sort of relaxing into the exercises and enjoy it. A little bit more. So I don’t talk as much as some of the other teachers and Q as much. But anyway, you’re going to find your own style and your own way of going about it. And there’s literally a zillion exercise you can do and nothing is more interesting than spring tension.

If you’ve never used it before, maybe not you particularly. But when you’re working with new clients, I find that it doesn’t matter. If I’m working with a six for 230-pound bodybuilder male or you know, 110-pound female. They just it’s such a different modality using the springs. And, you know, using lightweight to challenge yourself more. What you do with the springs is it’s just such a unique concept.

Hayley Kava: Yeah, yeah. Everyone, you know, has a pug floor. And is able to integrate how the pelvic floor is supposed to function. With our core avatar muscles of our hip. And our lower body, and our upper body. Yeah, like your ability to maximize the benefits of exercise in general, goes way up.

So whether or not someone is in the window. Or maybe who is at higher risk of having pelvic floor dysfunction. I think you start to be able to appreciate the whole body biomechanics better. When you understand how the pelvic floor functions.

And so the more comfortable we get talking about it. I think, the easier it becomes to integrate that into your programs with clients. Whether or not they’re specifically there for pelvic floor problems or not.

Steve Washuta: Totally, I echo those thoughts and stay on that topic. As far as exercises you use or tips. Even like cueing verbiage that you use to help clients. Do you have any tips for personal trainers to pass on when they’re doing pelvic floor-related things?

Hayley Kava: Yeah, I think one of the big things is to remember. Is that the pelvic floor has to go through a full range of motion. So it is just like our biceps, that if you just do in your curls at the top. You might have been able to lift a lot of weight. But then you go to reach for your coffee cup, and you can’t extend your elbow.

And that’s a problem. And that’s typically what tends to happen with pelvic floors is that we get into these habits of Qigong. Qigong, tighten it, tighten it, we’re gripping, we’re squeezing, we’re tucking everything. And we don’t ever get that lengthening that East-centric phase. And so the strength coaches will know is that we get more hypertrophy when we actually control eccentrics.

Right, so the negative is harder on our muscles, we get more muscle breakdown and build bigger stronger muscles. And so actually cueing the lengthening of the pelvic floor muscles as you go through a range of motion.

So a simple example is when you go into a squat, right. So when you come down into your squat, you should be able to sense that your glutes are lengthening. And that also that your pelvic floor is lengthening. Then as you turn around and stand back up, you can potentially coordinate contraction in lift of your pelvic floor as you stand up.

So it’s working together with the hip and the hamstrings in the cloud. It’s working together with the whole system. Sometimes we have to when people have pelvic floor dysfunction. We have to give them a little bit more reference. And I think that’s also where reformers and the spring tension can be really, really helpful.

Because it’s giving people a little bit more sense of the unit lay on what’s going on. Versus just sort of having no tension on but also giving them reference. Like maybe a ball between their knees or something like that. Because our adductors and our anterior pelvic floor a little bit more adduction. It sometimes allows the pelvic floor to feel a little bit more supported. So that it’s comfortable. getting longer.

Does that make sense? That’s a little bit of a weird concept. But if you think about a pelvic floor that’s healing. Or imagine you had a cut on your bicep. Uou would be a little bit nervous about relaxing it. Stretching that bicep muscle because injured.

And so when we use something like a yoga block, say or a ball between knees. It’s like putting a hand over that bicep. So that now it feels a little bit safer. It feels a little bit more comfortable to get that lengthening face.

So, that tip would be, could give that give people a little bit more external reference. If they’re struggling early on. Yeah, so Bob between knees or band around, knees, I don’t love that as much as a ball between these. But again, it’s some sort of external feedback. To help them be able to figure out where that pelvic floor is. That external feedback could also be pressure on the premium.

So you could be sitting on a ball, you could have a hand on your printer. You know, you could not maybe not use the string coach. But the have the client do that them themselves. And that sometimes helps people connect to those, those muscles that they maybe aren’t so familiar with.

Steve Washuta: I think that’s a fantastic tip. And yeah, it does make sense to me. I think, you know, having the sort of the neural pathways. Be built through the efferent afferent neurons through some sort of extra external stimuli. It needs to be there sometimes, because you don’t have it yet, right.

If you’ve never controlled some of these smaller muscles and work through the full range of motion. You’re going to need assistance in doing it.

Hayley Kava: Yeah, and I think a lot because our pelvic floor, our postural muscles, we often don’t check it. Clue in with them. As often as we maybe would send some feel like our quads, for example, like a bigger muscle. And so in the postpartum period. We’re then hyper-aware of our pelvic floor and core muscles. Because something dramatic has just happened to them.

But for the general population, or maybe someone further along in their rehab. Yeah, they maybe have kind of checked out on those muscles again, and started more compensation. So bringing that attention. You know, back into how it’s moving with movement. With the breath and all that.

So another really big important thing when someone starts early on, it becomes less important as they move further on in their rehab, or in their strength programming, is that when we inhale, we want to allow that eccentric phase to happen.

And then exhale, adding that concentric that that contract, lift and squeeze, or squeezing lift. Because a lot of times when again, especially when we have something dysfunctional happening in the pelvic floor, either it wants to be tight all the time, or it will do the reverse of that.

So we’ll Breathe in and we’ll feel that pressure on the pelvic floor so it will tighten against the inhale. And then we’re creating more pressure and more tension on the pelvic floor, which doesn’t not helpful, and then when we exhale we relax and we think oh Kamsa relax everything. But that’s not how that whole system should optimally be working together.

Steve Washuta: Haley this has been fantastic information where Can everyone find you if they’re looking for tips concerning the pelvic floor if they want to reach out to you and actually work with you if they have questions for you personally? Where’s the best medium to find Haley?

Hayley Kava: Yeah, so my website is Haley Kava PT COMM And then my Instagram is kind of where I tend to hang out the most and my handle is at Haley Kava, pt EJYLEY. And, and then on my podcast, I do with my good friend, Eddie Holzman, who’s also a pelvic floor PT.

It’s called the Don’t beat around the bush podcast. And we definitely get into all of the nitty-gritty, deep, kind of fun, details are fun. It’s all fun, but we get really into it on there without holding back or censoring ourselves whatsoever.

Steve Washuta: I was gonna say I recommend that podcast, but beware, it’s a little bit less PG than this one.

Hayley Kava: So yeah, you will get to know more than you want to know about me. But that’s all right. In all in, it’s all in the name of normal IP.

Steve Washuta: Well, Haley, thank you so much for joining the Trulyfit podcasts and I hope to have you down the road to turn into another topic in the public Borcherding.

Hayley Kava: Yeah, of course. Thank you so much.

Steve Washuta: Thanks for joining us on the Trulyfit podcast. Please subscribe, rate, and review on your listening platform. Feel free to email us as we’d love to hear from you.

Thanks again!




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